What book is this old page from (Old German? 17th c.?)

So I bought a page from an old book yesterday, because it looks nice and was dirt cheap. Unlike most of the other pages being sold by the shop, it didn’t come with information on what book it was originally from. I’d like to find this information out, just out of curiosity.

It’s a medium-sized page, maybe 15 by 25 cm (eyeball estimate, I don’t have a ruler handy). The writing looks an archaic form of German.

It looks like it might be a kind of gazetteer, but my modern German is bad enough as it is (I only learnt it for two years in high school), and the ornate letters and compact writing on this mystery page don’t help my decipherment of the text, either.

On the two sides of this page (pages ‘cxxxix’ and ‘cxl’) there are a number of larger headings. They are (as far as I can make them out): “Don Gallia”, "?odoetia oder ?ontschen (first letter hard to decipher, maybe a ‘P’), “Uriminum”, “Pisa”, “Das ander bůch”, and “Raueñ.” On page 140 there’s a small printed note in the left margin: “Pisa ein große statt.” (“Pisa - a big city”?).

Page 139 has one illustration, and page 140 has two, all of which appear to be of cities. They have “late hand-colouring”, according to the only bit of info that came with the page.

I’m hardly any kind of expert on this kind of thing, but I’d guess it’s from the 1600s. I could easily be out by a century either way, though.

That’s about as much information as I can give without quoting bits of the text (which I’ll happily do if anyone thinks it might help), but hopefully it’s enough to get some useful input.

Thanks!

Wow, I haven’t seen my sig in about three years.

culls his sig line from his profile

While I’m here, I’ll just add that there’s no watermark in the paper. Although another page from a different 17th c. book that I also bought does have a watermark, which is kind of cool.

Any chance of scanning it in? :slight_smile:

Yes, it looks appears to be German. (I’m German)

You are right about “Pisa ein große Statt” meaning “Pisa - a big city”
Modern spelling would be “…Stadt” but in those days spelling was far from standardized.

“Das ander Buch” means “The other book”. I guess the mark above the u was one horizontal bar and not two umlaut-dots. This was done because in Fraktur and related typefaces the n is almost identical to the u.

“Uriminium” could be “Ariminium” (Fraktur A looks very U-like) and that’s the Italian city of Rimini .

I am quite sure that this is German. If you doubt that or simply want to know more of the content, give us some text, preferably whole sentences.
With the old spelling plus the font-related difficulties a lot of interpolation is needed.
That’s why single words are very hard to translate without any context.

From what you posted it looks like as if it has German origin, of course.
But I’m afraid it is impossible to determine any origin and/or dating without being able to look at the page itself.

So yes, if you could scan it and give a link to the pictures of the page(s) that would be helpfull for getting started.
Salaam. A

Thanks all. I’ll bump this again about this time next week, once I can get some scanning done.

Here you go:

Page 139
Page 140

I’ve been attempting to translate bits of it, and it seems to be going on about the history of various places.

Thanks for scanning the pages. It is German. I don’t read fractur real well but can decipher enough to know it is about Italy. Arininum, Pisa, Theodelina of the Lombards, all Italian history stuff. Interesting to see the use of the letter “Y” in many of the words. Y is not often used in Modern German. Saw the preposition “bei” spelled “bey”. Probably a page from an 18th century book. Would look great matted and framed and hanging somewhere in your bathroom.

I could translate the first paragraph of it but this is not completely literal:

p 139:

[…] Johannes Galaetius, first duke of Milan, who got this city and forced it under himself, which was a free city before, build a palace and a large zoo there.
The other buildings have almost all been destroyed in the war except the “high” school [university?]. It still show how beautiful it was in this city long ago. For many years it has refused to be subject to the Emperor and that led to its vitiation.
What humans need for keeping their nature [?], is considered superfluous there and especially it has delicious and strong wine. In our times it belongs to the dukedom of Milan.

Here is a transliteration into a little more modern German. Give me another hour and I’ll post a translation to English:

Von Gallia page 139

… Ghibbelinern gewesen und noch ist. Johannes Galeanius, erster Herzog zu Mailand, dem diese Stadt zuteil ward, und der sie unter sich zwang, die vorhin freie Stadt war, hat ein Schloss dazu gebaut, und den grossen Tiergarten. Was alte Gebäude da sind gewesen, sind fast alle durch den Krieg zugrunde gegangen ausgenommen die hohe Schule, die zeigt noch an wie es so ein herrlich wesen in dieser Stadt vor Zeiten ist gewesen. Sie hat sich von viel Jahren her gesperrt dem Kaiser untertänig zu sein, und das hat Sie zu ihrer Verderbnis gebracht. Was dem Menschen Not ist zur aufenthaltung feiner Natur, wird überflüssig da befunden, und sonderlich hat köstlichen und starken Wein. Sie gehoert zu unseren Zeiten unter das Herzogtum Mailand.

Modoetia oder Montschen (modern name: Monza)

Am Wasser Lamber liegt die Stadt Montsche, die vor Zeiten König Dietrich und danach Theodolinda Königin der Langobarden mit ihren gaben gar wohl geziert haben. Es haben auch vor vierhundert Jahren die Kaiser in dieser Stadt zum ersten die Krönung mit der eigenen Krone empfangen, die danach gen Mailand gekommen ist.

(Note: This places the time when the original text was written either in the 12th-13th century, since Charlemagne was the first “Kaiser” to crown himslef with the iron crown of the Lombards (Eiserne Krone von Monza) in 774, or it could be referencing the crowning of Emperor Otto the First as King of the Lombards in 951. After this date Otto I. was crowned emperor, and ever since then the Emperor was also crowned King of the Lombards. this would place the (original) writing of the text in the 14th century. Either way, I would think that what you have is a copy of the original text, not actually a text written in the 12th, 13th, or 14th century.)

Ariminum (modern name: Rimini)

Die Stadt liegt in Flaminia, am Meer unfern von dem namhaften Wässerlein Rubicon, das jetzt Pisitella heisst, sie ist nicht wunderlich gross, hat ein ziemlich (parte des meer?) (probably: Teil des Meeres), hat auch gute Weid und deshalb gut und viel Fass. Das Feld um die Stadt ist nicht sonderlich gut zu der Fruchttragung, zu Wein aber ganz ungeschlacht, denn es waechst leuwer und ungeschmackt Wien an diesem Ort. Es haben etwa über die Stadt geherrscht, die Herzogen von Malatesta, aus Gunst des Kaisers Otto III., und als sie in nachgehenden Zeiten zu viel mutwillens mit den Bürgern trieben, und in ihren Hass fielen, sind sie von den Päpsten vertrieben worden, und ist die Stadt unter des Papsts Gewalt gekommen, der hat einen Vogt darin den man nennt Gubernatoren, der regiert die Stadt mitsamt einem Rat so gesetz wird von den Bürgern. Doch haben vor vierzig Jahren die Venediger etlich Jahr ingehabt wider des Papstes willen.

Pisa

Eine mächtige Stadt in Italia, die auch zwei oder dreimal um das Jahr Christi 1020, die Sarazenen geschlagen hat auf der Insel Sardinia und Sie beherrscht. Es haben auch die Bürger dieser Stadt Anno Christi 1108, angefallen die Inseln Maiorica (modern name: Mallorca) und Minorica (modern name Menorca) und die eingenommen, und ihren (mohammedanischen?) König totgeschlagen, die Königin aber mit einem Kind gefangen, und das Kind im christlichen Glauben auferzogen und unterwiesen, und das zu letzt zum König gemacht in gemeldeter Insel Maiorica. Es sind die Pisaner gewalttätig gewesen bis zur Zeit Kaiser Rudolfs. Der hat sie fast sehr (geliebt?)
Page 140: Das andere Buch

Anno Christi Tausend dreihundert neun und sechzig (1369) kaufte Petrus Habacurta (better known as Piero Gambacorti) die Stadt von Kaiser Karl um zwölf tausend Gulden. Danach kam Sie wieder in eine andere Hand, und ward zuletzt verkauft Johani Galeatio dem Vizegrafen. Von diesem ward sie verkauft den Florentinern. Und als die Pisaner des Übels zufrieden waren, machten Sie wider die Florentiner einen Auflauf, trieben sie zur Stadt hinaus, machten sie wieder frei. Es stand aber nicht lang dann die Florentiner brachten sie wieder unter sich und behielten Sie wieder bis zum Jahre Christi 1495. Jetzt ist sie mit der Stadt Florenz gekommen unter das Joch des Fürsten Cosme Medices (now known as Cosimo I. de Medici) der ein Gewalthaber in dieser Stadt hat.

(Note: this would place the text between 1519 and 1574, probably somewhere around 1560 or 1570)

Dieser Dienstbarkeit halb sind viel Bürger aus der stadt gezogen, Haus und Hof und ihre Güter dort hinterlassen, und sich anderswo hingesetzt, und besonder sind viel gen Venedig gekommen, und doch durch Kauffmannsgewerb wiederum aufgekommen. Die Stadt hat ein weiter Begriff und wird durch ein Wasser geteilt, hat hohe Stadtmauern die mit Marmorsteinen ausgeführt sind, aber hat wenig Einwohner und stehen viele Wohnungen leer. Doch ist der Stadt etwas geholfen durch eine hohe Schule so man dort aufgerichtet hat. So ist bei einer Kirche ein Turm, der ist wunderbarlich ein Gebau. Denn so man ihn von aussen ansieht, hängt er auf einer Seite, als wollte er einmals niederfallen, und so man drein kommt, ist er Schnurschlech aufgerichtet. Es ist auch ein Kirchhof da, der ist mit Mauern und (Schöpfen?) beschlossen, in welchen das Erdreich mag ein menschliches Leib verzehren in 24 Stunden. Das Erdreich um die Stadt ist fast fruchtbar am Korn, trägt aber gar schechten Wein. Die Bürger begehen sich fast mit Kaufmannsschätzen, denn die Stadt liegt nicht fern vom Meer. Es ist nicht fast eine gesunde Luft da, gesunder für die Fremden.

Rauen (modern name: Ravenna)

Die Gegend um diese Stadt hat vor alten Zeiten geheissen Gallia Togata, ist danach geteilt worden in Emilia und Flaminia, und heisst zu unserer Zeit Romandiola, darin auch die Stadt Rauen liegt. Dies ist gar eine alte Stadt, die König Dietrich mit hübschne Gebauen hat geziert. Und da haben die Exarchi (Note: A Proconsul or Viceroy of the Byzantine Empire. They governed what remained of Byzantine territory in Italy from Ravenna, until the last Exarch was killed by the Lombards in 751) ihren Sitz gehabt, die Vicari und Statthalter oder Gewalthaber sind gewesen des Kaisers.

So, it seems to be some kind of guide book for Northern and Central Italy. Milan and Monza are in the province Lombardy, Rimini and Ravenna are in Emilia-Romagna, and Pisa is in Tuscany.

From looking at the pictures the pages seem to be very well preserved.

Looked a few seconds at the text and it seems indeed to describe several historical events. I can’t date it at first sight or give an idea of origin.

I shall try to bring more information about it, but it can take a week ot two (or a bit longer) since I must have access to my library at home.

It has been a long time since I had to do paleography on EU languages, especially for German. Brings back memories of an obsessed prof., who lived with the stuborn idea that we didn’t have anything else to do then decipher all day his examples of medieval texts. Which he delivered us in the form of the most undreadable fotocopies you can imagine. He kept even record about how much time his students spend in the library to sweat on his masterpieces of copyism, while he was- unoffically - known to be the greatest book thief of the whole university (I’m not joking about this). So I always had the idea he kept record of how much students searched for dictionaries/books that had disappeared to his personal library.

If I can’t find out about these pages, maybe I could contact him to ask advise. I imagine that it would make him very happy… Now that I think of it, I’m already looking forward to do just that :).
Salaam. A

M. Holmes,

Can you by any chance also date the pages and place them in context? Fior the sake of practice it would be interesting to see if I can find out the same.

Salaam. A

Here is an English translation. Aldebaran, seeing as how the text says it was written fourty years after Rimini was ruled by the Venetians, (after getting rid of the Malatestas and the Papal rule), and during the rule of Cosimo I de Medici in Pisa, I would say the text was written sometime between 1550 and 1570. Of course, I can’t say if the manuscript is that old also, or a more recent copy of an older text. It is a lot harder to date the text using the reference Also, in this city the emperors first were crowned with the city’s crown four hundred years ago, since the first emperor supposedly crowned with the Iron Crown of Monza is Charlemagne in 774 (although some historians disagree), and the last one was Charles V in 1530.

Of Gallia page 139

… belonging then and now to the Ghibellines. Gian Galeazzo, the first duke of Milan, who gained this city and subjugated it, after having been a free city, built a castle and the large zoo. Almost all the old buildings there were destroyed by the war, wth the exception of the University, which still shows how this city must have been magnificent before. This city refused to obey the emperor for many years and this hs destroyed her. What is necessary by people to keep fine nature is found in abundance here, and the wine is strong and excellent. This city now belongs to the dukedom of Milan.

Modoetia or Montschen (modern name: Monza)

The city of Monza is on the river Lamber. King Dietrich and later Queen Theodolinda of the Lombards have given much to decorate this city. Also, in this city the emperors first were crowned with the city’s crown four hundred years ago. The crown is now in Milan.

(Note: This places the time when the original text was written either in the 12th-13th century, since Charlemagne was the first “Kaiser” to crown himslef with the iron crown of the Lombards (Eiserne Krone von Monza) in 774, or it could be referencing the crowning of Emperor Otto the First as King of the Lombards in 951. After this date Otto I. was crowned emperor, and ever since then the Emperor was also crowned King of the Lombards. this would place the (original) writing of the text in the 14th century. Either way, I would think that what you have is a copy of the original text, not actually a text written in the 12th, 13th, or 14th century.)

Ariminum (modern name: Rimini)

This city is in Flaminia, on the sea, not far from the famous little river Rubicon, now called Pisitella. It is not a large city, has a large part of the sea, and has good grazing. The country around this city is not very fertile, and relly bad for wine. The wine grown here is bad. The city was ruled by the dukes of Malatesta, by permission of emperor Otto III. When in the past they opressed the citizens too much, they were defeated by the Popes, and the city was ruled by the Pope. He had a viceroy there called a “governor”, that rules the city together with a coucil of citizens. Still, the Venetians controlled the city for several years (agains the Popes will) fourty years ago.

(This would place the time the text was written sometime around 1560, since Rimini was ruled by the Venetians from ca. 1500 to 1528. This seems to fit in with the next note below).

Pisa

A powerful city in Italy, which also defeated the Sarazens two or three times around the year 1020 on the island of Sardinia and then ruled this island. The citizens of this city also attacked the islands Mallorca and Menorca in the year 1108, took them, killed the muslim king, but took the queen and her child in capture. the child was raised and educated as a Christian and became King of the island Mallorca. The Pisans remained violent until the time of emperor Rudolf.
Page 140: The other book

In the year 1369 Piero Gambacorti bought the city from emperor Karl for twelve thousand guilders. Then it changed hands again and was last sold to Gian Galeazzo the viscount (first duke of Milan; see above). He then sold the city to the florentines. When the Pisans had had enough, they rebelled against the florentines and drove them out of the city. But not long after the city was again conquered by the Florentines and they controlled it until 1495. Now it is ruled, along with Florence, by Cosimo I. de Medici who has a governor in this city.

(Note: this would place the text between 1519 and 1574, probably somewhere around 1560 or 1570)

Because of all this may citizens have left the city, leaving behing their houses and belongings, and settled elsewhere. Many have gone to Venice and have again gained wealth as business people. The city is spread out and is split by a river. It has high stone walls made of marmor, but has few inhabitants and many houses are empty. But, the city is helped a little because there is a University. There is a tower by the church which is very strange. When looking at it from the outside, it leans to one side, as if about to fall over. When entering, one notices that the tower is not built straight. There is also a churchyard, with walls and (moats?) where the earth can swallow a man in 24 hours. The coutnry around the city is fertile for grain, but the wine is bad. The citizens are rich businessmen, because the city is close to the sea. The air there is halthy.

Rauen (modern name: Ravenna)

The area around this city was called Gallia Togata in ancient times, and was then seperated into Emilia and Flaminia, and is called Romandiola in our times. This is an old city, which king Dietrich decorated with many beautiful buildings. The Exarchs (Note: A Proconsul or Viceroy of the Byzantine Empire. They governed what remained of Byzantine territory in Italy from Ravenna, until the last Exarch was killed by the Lombards in 751) had their seat here, and were viceroys or governors for the emperor.

Yes, one can always bring in the terms “after/before” but that is a bit risky since we only have two pages.

That is why I would suggest first of all a paleographic study on it.

Salaam. A

I don’t think paleography is applicable here as this is not a manuscript, but a printed book.

Aldebaran and Mycroft, you’re not assuming that it’s a manuscript, are you? Even from the scans, it’s obviously printed. And dating type is always far less precise than dating handwriting.

I suspect the better clues are the woodcuts. For a book of this size - it must have had at least 140 pages - and on this sort of subject, woodcuts were common in the sixteenth century but became increasingly uncommon as the seventeenth century progressed. That would fit with the internal evidence, which Mycroft has so ably discussed, although one must always remember that later editions might reprint a text without updating it. Late sixteenth or early seventeenth century is probably about right.

I also suspect that the subject matter of the text is too general to make it possible to identify the specific book without a lot of work. I would be surprised if there weren’t numerous geographical guides of that sort published in German in that period.

Hmm. I don’t have a copy with me (I have a decent facsimile) but what it looks like to me (silly snap foolish guess and the style looks VERY familiar) is a page from the Nuremberg Chronicle (Hartmann Schedel’s Weltchroniek-- printed Nuremburg 1499? 1501?) or something like it-- the style is very familiar-- perhaps it’s a late printing? From the scans it looks at least like it’s printed on laid paper. In my semi-professional opinion the style is very consistent with around 1500-1550-- if it is genuine. Is there a watermark? There are watermark guides out there and the local university should have one. Is the printed text and illustration really PRINTED printed-- is there an impression made? You can find scans probably of most of the N-Chronicle (which will probably prove me wrong, but my hunch MIGHT be right. . .) on line.
How cheap was dirt cheap? I know these are out there and not too expensive-- very acquirable-- several of my aquaintances have pages from it. This is not considering Mycroft’s historical notes-- my Italian history isn’t that strong (what about the other elder Cosimo of (1440s?)?)

I’ve done a lot of research in England with manuscripts and early printed texts of the fifteenth- and sixteenth centuries. The leaves Erroneous links to are certainly from a printed book rather than a manuscript. The letters and diacritical marks are too even to be printed, even by a steady hand.

I agree. Tessa Watt and John N. King have done a lot of work on woodcuts in printed material in England, and they note that in the mid-16th century most English publishers were buying their woodcuts from Dutch or German sources. Woodcuts like the ones in the linked book were extremely popular on the Continent around that time period. These woodcuts are particularly interesting…they’ve been colored, perhaps by a later hand.

Looking at the woodcuts and the typeface, I’d say mid sixteenth-century, but I’m not so familiar with German works, so I could be wrong.

I don’t think it’s the Nuremburg Chronicle, though. Here are a few pages from the Chronicle–check out in particular pages like this one. The woodcuts in the Chronicle are far more detailed than the leaves from Erroneous’s book.

The term “paleography” as I a freely use here covers also the research of printed material = the different styles/ways of printing over the centuries.
Probably in your country - or even where I studied, I didn’t quite follow the conventional path in my studyprograms :slight_smile: - that forms a distinct discipline (If you tell me, there could come some light flashes in my brain.)

I’m rather out of touch with this whole discipline in its European style and context. I didn’t look at anything of that origin since 9 or 10 years.

An other interesting aspect on these pages are the images.
Theoretically that should give information to help for dating, but where I am now I don’t have any reference works for starting with that. I can look when I’m at home but maybe there are in the meantime others around here who can get the OP further for placing these pages in their time of origin and in context. (I’m also very interested in hearing/finding out about that).

Salaam. A

I see other posted about the images.

In my view, when looking at them, they are printed and next hand coloured but it isn’t possible to be sure of that when only having a scanned picture.
And even if so, the colouring can also be added at a much later date. Taking in account the brightness of the colours -especially the red - and the inaccuracy I would even think that must be the case and done by an amateur.

But one simply can’t say much if the document is not directly in front of you.
Salaam. A