What can be done to improve communism?

Small c communism, not any specific regime existing or that has existed. Please disregard those.

I think we can reach almost universal agreement that there are significant flaws with the general ideas of communism. I want to address these faults and see how they can be modified to be more successful.

Kindly take your communism-bashing elsewhere if you are unable to provide constructive thoughts.

Lastly, please read the whole thing before replying.

The first major problem I see with communism to date is that it has the unfortunate historical tendancy to be instituted in authoritarian states, and usually non-prosperous ones. I attribute this to a lack of definition in communist dogma of the government the system would work under. I think communism itself is inherently democratic; the whole idea is having low disparity in income and power, thus giving everyone a say in the government. The historical trends that establish communism in authoritarian states have mostly come about because of the nature of revolution; I can’t recall any states that peacefully chose to go communist. In every one, there was a revolution, and revolutions tend to produce dictators. I think it is a rather ironic historical fact that the ideological polar opposite of communism - social darwinism and laissez faire - that promote the individual achievements and prosperity of those who earn it comes about under mostly democratic systems… though the current climate in the US where an upper class elite is the only group capable of achieving power, they still have a republic system where everyone gets a vote, and the leaders are held accountable for their actions. This would make more sense under a communist system.

The second major problem is even more prickly, given the fundamental core of communism. Simple fact is, however equal you want to make people, a doctor and a mechanic can not exist in the same economic class. The doctors would simply leave for other countries and more money, or become incompetent. This is the second factor that leads to communist states being authoritarian - they have to force the “equality” on certain people.

Lastly, the whole one-party system is just stupid and needs to be scrapped. I don’t think I need to explain much on how this contributes to an authoritarian government.

If I were to revise communism, I would include a democratic system with it, possibly somewhat similar to the one going into action in Iraq. The government would be decentralized and “federal” in the sense that power radiates outward, not inward; local communities have more say over what happens in that community than the state or central government. I think this is a flexible system that would work in places like Iraq or America, where you have strong regional divides; one region could choose to institute policies (like, say, homosexual marriage) without worrying about the other regions doing so. Of course, that example is frought with problems, like what happens when a gay couple would travel to a non-homosexual marriage region. I don’t know how to solve that right now.

Basically, this is a return to a city-state system. Possible risks include civil wars and secession… which is why the central government would have to be the sole provider of the military.

Economically, some changes need to be made, and some ideals sacrificed. In the end, my system would look more similar to, say, Norway, than the Soviet Union. While lowering income disparity is still a prime goal, there needs to be some room for flexibility; some people will always have to be richer than some others. In exchange, you get the government providing necessary services (housing, food, utilities, public transportation, education, medical care, security (police and fire), etc etc). The basic gist is - well, instead of high taxes, look at it in reverse; low pay. Instead of making 100,000 and paying 70% tax on it, you would make 30,000. Same effect, but it looks less invasive, and given the number of services provided by the government, all this income would be disposable. This is important for the next step -

Economically, the state wouldn’t directly control each business; companies could be formed, but they would be owned wholly by the workers of that company, who would elect a board, turning each company into a “mini-state.” Pay scale would be decided according to national guidelines, but positions and promotions and demotions would be set by the elected board (who wouldn’t be getting a larger share of the company vote, but a higher paycheck to compensate for their expertise). Given unemployment, the government would embark on New Deal-style public works - hire the unemployed at the expense of the state to handle low-end state jobs. As for the unemployable, they would get a stipend similar to SSI/SSD, but largely be dependent on a hospital or family to care for them beyond that.

Hopefully this system would lower income disparity (doctors and business people wouldn’t be making the same kinds of salaries they could in other countries, but they would be relatively better off, without making the lower end of the economic scale suffer any needs, just luxaries), leave disposable income for some free market enterprise by communal private corporations, and provide representational government focused on local issues. Additionally, any child born in a given region has the same resources as any other child born in that region.

Now, tear that apart. I want to see the holes in it.

The biggest problem with communism is people. People are fundamentally greedy and lazy little bastiches, and getting an entire society to live in a society that requires them to be collectively selfless runs counter to billions of years of (social and biological) evolution.

“From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs” would work great with a society of emotionless robots, though.

How would a communist system adress small business? Mrs. Fields cookies for example.

Would a start up Mrs fields be required to price her wares on the same scale as the “Peoples Bisquit Factory”? Would she be permitted to begin such a venture at all? If her business started to flag would the government kick in some bucks to keep it running? If her venture takes off would she be permitted to use the extra money to expand her line or would any extra money be siphoned off to support “Comrads Steel Wool Tampon Works”?

Where did the money for the venture come from in the first place? If she was recieving income “to her needs” then she was either living very thrifty or defrauding the government. Perhaps the government could issue “seed money” for start ups. Would there be a commitee to decide what ideas were worthy?

The flaws in such a system are obvious to me and are insurmountable in my opinion. Such rigid control of an economic system would almost require a totaliarian government. It would quash originality for the sake of efficiency. Small “lean and mean” companies would be replaced by government conglomerates. Imagine your plumber, handyman, pool cleaner to name a few replaced by the governments home services division.

Demorian: Now, tear that apart. I want to see the holes in it.

Well, seems to me that the biggest issue is that it’s no longer really communism, or even what I would call socialism. It’s a mixed system combining market freedoms with social welfare policies, although it leans strongly to the socialist side of the mixture.

Nothing wrong with that, except that it illustrates the fundamental non-viability of unmixed communism or socialism. Pure socialism doesn’t work, for the reason rjung pointed out above: human self-interest is simply too highly developed for a purely altruistic/communal society to be cohesive. Similarly, pure capitalism doesn’t work, because a totally individualist society based only on self-interest isn’t sufficiently cohesive either.

Well, my first thought is the best way to improve communism is to put it in the same category as slavery and subsequently marginalize and eliminate it worldwide.

As for specifics:

Well, historically, communism establishes a foothold in countries that undergoing a major crisis/civil war. I don’t understand how a “lack of definition” has any effect on this.

Well, that may be the whole idea, but in practice although income can be levelled, how could a state enforce its own laws of defend itself from outside aggressors without power of some kind being held by somebody?

Well, it’s not simply true that the upper class elite is the only group capable of achieving power in the U.S. Even if you limit yourself to who gets to run for president, Bill Clinton was hardly born into some American elite.

Well, there you go. You’ll either have to keep your population imprisoned, or accept that anyone who feels their talents are not being justly rewarded will hit the road. If anything, this offers the best proof of whether a system is working or not; are the citizens voluntarily working within it or would they leave if they could? As far as I know, no communist state ever had an net influx of immigrants, barring waves of refugees fleeing one state to another.

Well, you can certainly make a case for greater socialization, but I doubt the Norwegins want to establish a communist state. Established democracies can go as far as they like in that direction without sacrificing capitalism, but once communism is in place, any modification to the system becomes difficult or impossible, as far as the citizens are concerned. I’m afraid I don’t see how a truly “democratic” communist system could work. Would factory managers be elected by popular vote? Could they be voted out of office? Doesn’t this turn control of the mreans of production into a mere popularity contest?

Although I don’t understand the “mini-state” notion, corporate structures that are owned by worked already exist, as well as legal cooperatives. The latter works best when the members are devoted to a particular industry (typically agriculture). What happens in your “mini-state” when a worker/owner dies or wants to move away? Is his equity forfeit?

Well, I have no problem with a social safety net and whatnot.

Doesn’t that simply tend to create richer regions and poorer regions within your state? Doctors who want to improve their skills will want to be near other doctors; thus a city-state that creates a technologically advanced teaching hospital attracts doctors and researchers, to the possible detriment of other city-states? What’s the remedy of a city-state who can’t afford to compete and who is legal prevented from offering higher salaries? Appeal to federal authority to punish the city-state that built the hospital? Restrictions of the movement of doctors?

The single largest "hole’ is that communism doesn’t work. Your proposals will tend to separate reward from talent, with the end result of making talented people unhappy. Since the progress of a society tends to depend on a relatively small number of talented scientists, engineers and artists, yours is a recipe for stagnation, entropy, and collapse.

Funnily enough, it would work really well in a society of over empathic people, too.

I do agree that it is against most human nature to seek the greediest and easiest path possible. But I figure there are ways to minimize that. We just haven’t figured them out yet.

No.

Yes.

No.

Sure, if the employees want to put their money into that.

Pay from the government.

The government provides all needs. What a person does with their earnings is up to them - make their house nicer, invest it in their company, take a vacation, save it. shrugs

Yes, similar to how there are committees in capitalist governments that give seed money to various companies and industries - and there’s always banks and loans.

But who owns the companies? If it is the employees (workers) by your terms then what if the company makes a profit beyond their State imposed salaries? It seems you believe this money would just sit static in some type of savings account that the factory controls. If this is the case then where does the money for the government come from? How are they “going to supply all needs”.

Is there some federal taxation scheme that covers your “factory state” system? If there is then how does the company remain solvent in lean times. You already stated that the overseeing government would not provide bailout money. How will the other “factory states” provide this if they are in the same boat?

No, it goes to the government to help provide further expenses.

Then the failing industry fails. There is no sense in investing billions of dollars into industries that are hemorrhaging money. A better solution would be to reanalyze the reasons the industry is failing and make changes to the system. This doesn’t happen in capitalism because of continued investment and aforementioned government bailouts.

Suppose a worker at an engineering company comes up with an idea. This idea has the potential to quintuple profits, revolutionize the industry and generally improve life for citizens, i.e. something along the lines of the transistor. The cost of researching and developing this idea wll cost, say, $10 million and although success is likely, there is no guarantee the idea will prove practical.

Given that any increase in profits cannot be kept by the company, what incentive have they to risk their $10 million?

(emphasis added) Why would anyone invest in their company if they will never see any share of the profits beyond their salaries? See here:

And we come back to the one major reason communism doesn’t work.

Who cleans the sewers?

Or, in other words, what incentive does anyone have for doing anything? I’m not talking about people with passions, here. I’m not talking about the artists and the philanthropists and the Albert Schweitzers and the Mother Theresas. I’m talking about the McDonald’s workers and the bus drivers and the sewer workers, jobs that aren’t only not glamorous, but deadly dull and possibly dangerous.

If I know that I’m never going to see any reward for my work, why should I bother, if I know that my basic needs are going to be met anyway?

presumably, someone would be compelled by law to do the jobs that no one wants to do.

and here’s where we come to what i think is the fundamental flaw in communist philosophy. i think kurt vonnegut, in his short story harrison bergeron, made the point very succinctly. i also think that the declaration of independence got it fundamentally wrong. what i mean to say is, of course, that all men are not created equal, nor are they born equal, nor do they develop equally, and so they should certainly not be forced to be equal in some arbitrary aspect of their lives.

i have no desire for wealth equality. i don’t see it as beneficial to society on the a whole. i think that’s where communism goes wrong.

as i said, i think the problem is fundamental, and so i see no way of fixing it. you seem to be advocating a more socialized form of democracy, with which i also see problems. if you’d like to hear them, i’ll be as quick as i can to oblige, but since the question is about communism, i’ll leave it at this for now.

I should have never posted to this thread. I have not the time nor the patience to keep up with it. I’ll probably be too busy to post tomorrow.

See, I am a capitalist pig. I own my own contracting company, a company I started with my life savings (and twenty years of sweat equity in the trades to teach my self how to do it).

I spent my first year just trying to get people to trust me, I lost money. Second year same thing. But I kept my eye on the ball. I was going to provide people with competant home repairs/ landscaping at a reasonable price. My competetion was big companies and the myriad half assed handies roaming the area.

I stuck with it. Ive been sticking with it for over six years now. Only through extreme sacrifice and hard work is my company profitible now.

Under your model, my company would have been worthless, barely worth a glance. I would have been better served working in the sawmill. (or what ever job some fucknut government employed job placement specialist dreamed up)

Under mine I now employ 3 full time tradesmen and a few laberors. I pay a wage that is higher than the unions offer because I want to attract skilled craftsmen.

Free enterprise, sometimes we forget how well it works.

Communism is an economic proposition. Most of the OP is concerned with government.

What is communism without government?

Libertarianism.

Make it voluntary.

Unfortunately I have no time to participate in this discussion but it is a subject I have thought about a great deal myself. Here’s one idea/perspective I thought of:

If you want to set up a communist society, bring in entrepreneurs and libertarians to help you do it.

I didn’t see Lib’s post before I posted. He has said earlier that Libertarianism is not necessarily incompatible with Communism. People in a Libertarian society could voluntarily agree to introduce Communist policies. Which leads to my question: would the reverse also be true?

SentientMeat

Yea yea, we all know that, did you have anything else to add? Aside from a wikopedia reference on the wrong topic I mean.

Liberal

“Make it voluntary”

Ok that was funny.

Frankenstein Monster

Whaa?

Hits the nail on the head.

Thanks for your thoughtful comment :slight_smile:
It’s people like you (post #14) we need for our cause.
(I am a small contractor myself, in a different field.)