Yeah. It’s been mentioned several times.
I disagree strongly. The actions of all the people involved in running the concentration camps during the holocaust were absolutely evil, because they either did not recognize the humanity of the Jews (which is evil), or because they were “just following orders” which they knew to be evil (which is also evil). No sadism need to be involved. Todd shooting the tarantula kid was 100% evil, and if it isn’t, then your evil-o-meter needs to be recalibrated.
(And that’s part of why getting involved in any illegal activity is such a bad idea… it’s very unlikely that as part of my job as a software developer I will end up in a situation where I have to choose between shooting a kid and going to jail. I’d like to think I’d make the non-evil choice in that situation, but I’m certainly glad that I’m not making lifestyle choices which make it likely that I’ll have to face that choice to begin with.)
I’m not equating selling drugs to murder. Mike is a murderer because he murders people. Additionally, as a former policeman he knows better than anyone the damage caused to lives by illegal drugs but he works for a massive illegal drugs manufacturing and distribution operation.
But this isn’t (for me) about proving Mike is relatively bad or that Todd is relatively good. I’m of the view Mike and Todd are both career criminals who kill when they perceive a benefit to doing so. I consider them equals.
They aren’t identical: Superficial differences in age and circumstances and all that. But from a moral viewpoint both are murders who kill, have no regrets, then later kill again. Repeat indefinitely.
TCMF-2L
As for Mike vs Todd, I think it’s crazy to say they’re equivalent or even similar.
If you were driving a fancy looking car and broke down in a crappy neighborhood and needed to get out and fix your flat tire, would you rather have Mike or Todd happen along and see what was going on? (Or, for that matter, Ramsay Bolton?)
Todd also apologizes to Andrea before he shoots her in the head. She was facing away from him and so didn’t see it coming. He said something like “I want you to know this isn’t personal” Boom. So he had some sense of how unfair it was. Just not enough to not do it.
Actually, I think here’s a better comparison.
Suppose that you find yourself in a difficult financial situation, and at the same time, you more or less by accident find yourself in possession of a fairly large and potentially valuable quantity of prescription painkillers that you really ought not have (maybe they were just sent to the wrong address, or you found them while cleaning up your deceased parent’s house, or something).
Normally you wouldn’t get involved in the drug trade in any way, but money is really legitimately tight, and you have all these pill bottles sitting around.
So, you talk to a friend who you mostly trust, and he says that he knows a guy who knows a guy who maybe can help you convert bottles of pills into money.
So… you’re a bit nervous, but your friend sets up a meet, and you show up in a sketchy looking location with your bottles of pills, and you meet…
…Mike or Todd.
Is there anyone in this thread who doesn’t think there’s a HUGE difference in your likelihood of surviving, getting paid actual money, keeping that money, and then proceeding with your life unmolested; depending on whether it’s Mike or Todd that you are dealing with?
This demonstrates the dichotomy with Mike and Todd that others have that I don’t have.
From having watched the show - and using that omniscient knowledge - Todd never harmed anyone without a specific reason. Mike showed a willingness to murder and obey any instruction from Gus.
As I am a nobody, neither should represent a threat to me. If either wanted me dead neither would hesitate.
TCMF-2F
Going by Rigamarole’s description of him, probably not Ramsey.
But Todd vs Mike? If I didn’t have any business with them, beyond that? Todd, hands down.
Mike might help you out, I suppose, if you’re lucky. But more likely he would blow past you on his way to his next Mr. Fix-It gig. And if he did help you, it would be reluctantly, and he would bitch and moan about it the whole way.
Todd would pull over, all cheerful, and say: “Good day, sir, can I help you?” He would change your tire for you, and say: “Don’t mention it, sir! Have a nice day! Drive safely!”
Then, he would take the opportunity to help an old lady cross the street. Before going off to torture some meth slave in a warehouse or shoot someone.
Todd is a very nice young man, unless he has a reason to be otherwise.
…
Wait, am I arguing against my earlier post, where I compared Todd to Hitler? I guess that I am. Damn it, this kind of thing keeps happening.
Todd probably isn’t someone that I would like to have a close personal relationship with, though. Doesn’t seem safe. In that case, I’ll pick Mike any day of the week. Mike has a heart and a soul. I’m still not convinced that Todd does.
Here’s what would happen if your car actually had serious problems: he would say “hey, let me call a tow truck for you, my uncle owns a tow truck business”. And then he would call his uncle. And if his uncle said “sure, let’s tow him and get paid for the job, we need to keep a low profile right now”, Todd would happily engage in a fairly legitimate business interaction and go on his way, being basically polite and cheerful all the time. But if his uncle said “bring me the car, make sure no one ever finds the body”, Todd would also do that, cheerfully and politely, and would sleep well that night.
True.
Sure enough, but you understood well enough to correct me. So, language even works when you use it wrong. Thankya.
But as was pointed out, Mike does have regrets, and avoids killing innocents.Todd kills without any sign of regret, and has no problem assassinating people who aren’t involved in the criminal underground. It may not be enough for you to see a difference, but it exists.
I’m back on Jesse.
A lot of people want to give Jesse something of a pass for shooting Gale, because Walt manipulated him into doing it.
Which is a fair point. But what if it’s Jesse doing the manipulating? Jesse wants to kill the two dealers who made Andrea’s kid brother kill Combo (if I’m getting that right, that plot is more complicated than I first remembered). First, he manipulates Walt (of all people) to give him ricin. Then he manipulates Wendy the hooker into delivering the poison in some hamburgers that she’s going to bring to the dealers.
Of course, Walt sabotages the plan. Things go from bad to worse, and the two dealers kill Andrea’s brother (because, apparently, they take Gus’s orders of “no more children” as an instruction to go on a child-murdering spree, or something). Then Jesse goes on a suicide mission with a gun, and Walt ends up killing the two dealers to save him.
Who’s the manipulator now? It’s not as cold and calculated as with Walt, sure, and the victims are some very nasty criminals, but it is Jesse turning people into murderers or accessories to murder. He also has no problem recruiting his friends as dealers for the meth operation, resulting in Combo getting killed in the first place.
Another thing, BTW: I had actually almost forgotten about it until I noticed it just now on the BB wiki, but Jesse kills another dude in addition to Gale. He shoots one of the cartel goons when he’s with Gus and Mike on the revenge mission to Don Eladio’s villa. I don’t think that ever bothered him all that much. Then again, it was basically self-defense, so if it was me, I probably wouldn’t have been sweating much over it either, even if that goon did have family, hopes, dreams and a sensitive side.
Oh, yeah, and then he also kills Todd. But that one is different, obviously. No one is losing sleep over that. At least I’m not. That’s just high fives all around.
I’m not quite sure what point you’re making here. Jessie is a criminal and a murderer. He is, by the standards of modern society, a bad man. He deserves to go to jail for a long time.
But are you claiming that he’s more malicious and manipulative and evil than Walt? Seriously?
Holy cow. Of course not! That would be ridiculous. And when did I say that? There was just a claim upthread that Jesse is morally “clean”. So I figured that I would poke into it some more.
BTW: Which death on BB upset you guys the most? I wonder if there’s some correlation between how evil someone is and how bad we feel about them getting killed. Not a one to one relationship, maybe just some clue to relative badness.
With Walt, I’m actually basically neutral. I don’t feel sad about it, but not happy either. It made sense, I guess.
Gus bothered me. I wanted him to have his revenge over Hector, and then Walt had to screw it all up.
Jane: That really sucked. But it could be just because she’s cute.
Mike: That really sucked, too. And Mike isn’t the slightest bit cute.
Andrea was a bad one for me. But, then again, no one ever accused her of being anything but an innocent bystander, so I guess that she doesn’t enter into the debate.
Todd: Cheers and fist bumps. Yeah, you can kill that SOB all day long, as far as I’m concerned. I’ll bring the popcorn.
I think it is all about how we the viewers are made to feel about a character within the context of the show. The objective morality of the character’s actions are only in part responsible for that.
This is why the viewers tend to find Jesse sympathetic, even though he’s a murderous criminal.
With Walt, the makers of the show initially set him up to be sympathetic (even though, again, he’s a murderous criminal), and then tear that sympathy down.
As viewers, we tend to be willing to “forgive” characters who are by objective standards totally sociopathic, if they are portrayed sympathetically (Luc Besson seems to specialize in this - with Nikita and, in particular, with Leon and Mathilda from Leon - The Professional).
Worst was Hank, without question.
The death that upsets me the most is one that upsets me aesthetically—Walt’s death at the end by gunshot. I’m tired of the trope of a story being resolved with a character’s homicide of some kind. I’m tired of the idea that someone killing someone solves all outstanding problems or resolves a story. The only resolution that bores me more is a car chase. I would much rather Walt had gone to prison and died of lung cancer.
At least he didn’t shoot her in the face, I’ll give him that.
Apparently something to keep in mind when capping the ladies.
I actually agree with your post. But I know many former addicts (of illegal drugs and tobacco) that said that and meant it, and successfully quit using (and I mean for years at this point, not like a week or two). Your point still stands though, a whoooole lot say that and they’re so f’n full of it. What matters is if they actually want to quit, or if they are only saying that because someone else wants them to quit. But once someone truly wants to quit, whether anyone else is involved or not, they often will. Jesse and Jane were full of shit though.