If you want condemnation of Bigots-for-Christ, then it’s right under your nose, isn’t it? What? We Christians here at Straight Dope aren’t good enough? You want to hear it from the real Christian leaders?
Well, what is a real Christian leader? If Slythe suddenly goes on television and says, “I am a Christian. Give me your money. I hate faggots,” is he now one of the real Christian leaders? Do we measure real Christian leadership in the same way we measure political leadership? With polls? With who gets the most TV time? Who bellows the loudest and flails the most spastically?
If you want to hear from a real Christian leader, then go out to a mission and find a volunteer who is feeding and bathing a man with advanced AIDS.
The original real Christian leader said, “In those days, many will call out to me, ‘Lord, did we not do might works in your name?’, and I will say, ‘Go away from me, you evildoers. I never knew you’.”
He also said, “A tree is known by its fruit.” If you see a pear, do you think it came from a pine tree? If someone pasted a label on the pear that reads “Pine Cone”, would you put it in your pine cone basket, and pretend to be oblivious to what it really is?
“By this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” If you can’t take His word for what a Christian is, then the term doesn’t mean anything anyway.
Lib, Tris, others…
First, I refuse to acknowledge that by attacking the Christian religion in any way, I am attacking you personally.
Second, if we are to judge Christians by their deeds, not their words, then those of you Christians who are damaging the church, on national televion and throughout the world are the ones representing the religion. Those who are not Christian see these bozos day after day, and believe that they are the true representative of Christians on the whole, precisely because there isn’t an equally loud voice from other Christians condemning them.
“If they do bad things, they can’t be Christians!” doesn’t wash. It reminds me of the old CIA trick of erasing the membership of any of them who get caught doing something bad. You may say to yourselves,“WE know that so-and-so isn’t REALLY a Christian, so we don’t have to apologize for so-and-so’s actions.”, but the message not heard from the non-choir is silence.
BTW, postings on this board isn’t gonna do jack for the old couple who have given thousands to old Squints in the hopes that they can buy their way out of the coming Apocholypse, which is coming any day now, according to him. This message has to come from their pastors and friends.
Funny, isn’t it? Here I am doing my best to help the Christian religion put the proper message forward, and I am supposed to be the great Christian-hater.
You’d think that if I hated Christians, I would support all those nutcase in their group that are destroying their credibility.
Sorry, Slythe, but I don’t know enough about the Christian religion to help you. If you hate Christians, then you’re a Christian-hater; but if you don’t, then you’re not. The message of Jesus is a very simple one, and if you want to help put it forward, then I have no complaint about that.
Okay. My church does speak out – and I mean both parish and denomination. Usually it’s a bit muffle-mouthed, with a lot of BOMFOG about reconciliation and considering the feelings of everybody, but it’s clearly anti-Divine-Weaselist.
I personally don’t feel called to go over to LBMB and make a hairy nuisance of myself provoking arguments with conservative Christians – I get into enough of those right here! (And you could make a good case for that being “doing Satan’s work!” :D)
I occasionally write letters to the editor against pseudo-Christian prejudice. They don’t get published as a rule.
So, with no intent to bait, slythe, what do you suggest I do that I’m not doing? Though it sounds like a retort, I’m seriously interested in your answer, and promise to give serious consideration to what you suggest.
I turned on the TV to watch and was channel surfing. I came across a Benny Hinn (one of dem TV evangelists) and thought I’d pause to listen to what he had to say. (Note: I am not a follower of Benny Hinn, and what I have to say is my personal observations.)
He started out, and quoted scripture that said, not all that cry out Lord, Lord will enter into the Kingdom of God.
(great place to start, I thought to myself, where will he go with this)
Then he skipped around, and found a pssage about the great commission. And told how his ministry is going around the world and taking the gospel of Jesus to many countrys.
(YAY, I thought, but what does this have to do with the ‘Lord, Lord’ quote)
Next scripture was one of Jesus telling the people to follow his commandments.
(okay I could see where he was going now, but I paused to see what would follow)
Then he began telling how this world wide tour of his was going to take money, and he needed people to follow the Lord commandment and… yadda yadda yadda.
At which point, I changed the channel. I already give to missions. Real missions, not ‘Brother Love’s TRaveling Salvation Show’. That is usually what I do when someone on the screen is clearly teaching or explaining something by jumping around in the Bible, trying to justify people to give money to their ministry.
I much perfer the radio shows that give a two-minute trailer at the end that say, this is a listener supported ministry, if you support this work, please drop a donation.
I think changing the ‘channel’ is an appropriate way to respond to these false teachings. And when friends ask about {insert tele-evangelist money grubber here} I can say truthfully, I never watch them.
To Pariah, yes, I was not meaning that one should be sinless to admonish another, but one must be aware of the plank in one’s own eye and remove it before one can attempt to remove the speck out of his brother’s eye.
That is do not be a hipocrite (sp) clean your own house before you go criticizing someone else’s house cleaning.
Just out of curiosity, slythe, do you have an example of a mainstream Christian group actively condemning a specific non-Christian evil, then failing to address any comparable evil within the Christian community?
I remember a great many condemnations of racism; I do not ever remember a call to prosecute Bull Conner or a call to remove Orville Faubus or George Wallace from office.
The RCC continually opposes legislation to expand or fund abortion rights; I have never seen a statement that has condemned a pro-choice supporter. (I have seen a local bishop rebuke a prominent Catholic for supporting pro-choice legislation, but I have never seen a non-Christian (or even non-Catholic) attacked.)
When Swaggart (I think) claimed that God did not listen to the prayers of Jews, the RCC issued several statements to the effect that God most certainly did hear the prayers of His Chosen People.
I have seen statements from numerous Catholic papers and bishops condemning the violence against abortion facilities or their workers. The only statement I have seen repeated in the national press was the comment by the idiot editor in Washington state that the Buffalo doctor would not perform any more abortions. (So even when statements are made, they are only reported selectively.)
Mainstream Christianity does not attack individuals, it “addresses issues.” If you feel that this is too much of a mealy-mouthed approach, there are issues in which I will join you in that criticism.
I can not find any example of a Christian being given “a pass” simply because they were Christian. Where have you seen a non-Christian being blasted where a Christian would not?
slythe: You might also tune into Hank Hannegraf’s ‘Bible Answerman’ Broadcast. He quite often speaks against some of the more ‘outlandish’ sects in Christianity.
His website is CRI and is a prat of the Christian Research Institute.
(Some might call that an oxymoron, to each his own ;))
Nothing much to add at this point, but I wanted to use my new .sig because it’s so appropriate to the topic.
“Some of us do great things to benefit all mankind. Some of us do little things that benefit a few people. And some of us post to the Straight Dope Message Board.” --An AOL poster, as quoted in Return of the Straight Dope
Polycarp, as far as I’m concerned, you’re doing a great job. I just wish there was a national forum to put Falwell, Robertson, Hinn, and the others in their place. Those assholes are siphoning millions of dollars away from true charities, both Christian and otherwise, and I consider that to be a major threat to this society. Just once I would like to say to the press, after one of those idiots have make some statement or another, “Our church does not recognize this man or his teachings to be representative of Christianity, and are going to advise our members to quit listening to him.”
Or is that too harsh a way to deal with lying conmen who prey upon the elderly?
Lib, Tris, others…
First, I refuse to acknowledge that by attacking the Christian religion in any way, I am attacking you personally.
[/quote]
Well, that sure makes it OK to sling accusations to the wind, and brings the benefit of not having to listen to anything that anyone says, either. Ignoring the person is not the same as assigning blame by groups. One is a rhetorical convention of debate; the other is bigotry. I don’t hold anyone else responsible for what you post or hold you responsible for any opinions or attitudes you don’t display here in print. Your treatment other posters and me annoys me, because I do think that you attack people. But then, I think Christians are people. Evidently you don’t.
Countering the spiritual harm done by demagoguery cannot be accomplished by more demagoguery. A campaign to martyr the television evangelists is not going to make them less attractive to the lost souls of the world. The real hard fact is that making people see the light is not possible. What is possible is to light our own candles, and touch those within our own reach. A lot of the people who watch the shows on TV already agree with the point of view they are listening to. Robertson is mining a vein of sanctimony, not leading souls astray. Phelps is gathering mobs of bigots, not teaching hatred to the loving masses.
I don’t think Christians as a group are any better, or any worse than any other randomly designated group of humans. Sports fans run a gamut from happy enthusiasts to vicious vandals. Sports doesn’t cause this, it is simply the basket of choice for differentiating this particular spectrum from others. Atheists are not specifically more, or less ethical than Druids. Holding one atheist responsible for the opinions or actions of another is bigotry.
<P ALIGN=“CENTER”>Tris</P>
“We are apt to forget that children watch examples better than they listen to preaching.”
– **Roy L. Smith **
I kinda skipped down a bit, so apologies if I retrace some ground here–
First, we have to remember that we have all fallen short of the glory of God. We are all equally despicable. Everyone, from Mother Teresa to Hitler, is just as sinful as the next. How we respond to that innate sinfulness is what seperates the sheep from the goats.
However, through the grace of God, we are redeemed. This area can get a little sticky, what with election and free will, so I’m going to leave it alone.
As Christians, we are called to live in a Christ-like way. This is seldom easy; the path is hard and narrow, while the road to hell is wide and slightly down hill. Unfortuneately, some people stray off this path in a very public, often embarassing, manner. People (i.e. televangelists) will do anything for fame. As Christians, we should reflect the light of Jesus on to the path, making it easier for others to see the way. We also need to “tend the flock”, however, we must do so in the appropriate manner, which isn’t always easy. We must build each other up (I think this has been said at least once- but it’s true) and encourage each other as we travel together down the path. And being the Reformed/Calvinist person that I am, we must do so in the world, not apart from it. The problem is that it is damn near impossible to avoid hypocrisy- see above.
So my response to people such as those listed in the OP is: sorrow that someone has strayed from the course, hope that they will correct themselves (with help from both above and from fellow Xns), and hope also that I lead a life that witness to others what being a Christian truly means.
It’s not how you pick your nose, it’s where you put the boogers
I speak up against the bigotry and stupidity that some so-called Christians spew out too. I often get looks like I’m a crackpot when I do it. But, it is never like I “keep my mouth shut” when I encounter a “fellow Christian”.
One thing that springs to mind with all of this is - when more liberal Christian factions speak out against the scary assholes, who listens? Who will cover it in the news? The answer is - the media often won’t cover it, or won’t give it the same attention it will to the nutjobs. Who wants to hear something uplifting and rational when they can cover the sad, depressing, frustrating and negative side of an issue? That’s the way the news is these days.
To quote Polycarp:
My point exactly. Something rational like that isn’t going to be high priority to be published, is it? In my opinion it usually works that way.
So the general concensus is that if we ignore the problem of national evangelists destroying the name of Christianity, it’ll just go away, and I’m just an evil ole atheist Christian-hater for pointing out the problem, Tris?
If they shout to the world that they represent Christianity, and they are not loudly and constantly opposed, well, guess what? They do, at least to those who can’t hear you whisper among yourselves about how you are the true Christians, and they aren’t. Turn on your am radio on Sundays and hear which message is getting to the masses. Watch CBN and see if your version of Christianity is getting to the masses.
I think it’s fine and dandy that you can reconsile the problem in your own heart, and pass out forgiveness as you see fit.
But would you mind telling me how this helps that man who just sent a few thousand dollars to Pat Robertson in hopes of being on the right side of the End Days he predicts are coming any day now? Or how it helps the old woman who just mortgaged her house to follow Benny Hinn around, because she knows that he can cure her various deseases?
You’re right though. It’s not my problem.
It’s yours.
I forgot to mention the thing about false teachers. I’m not sure of the passage, my scripture references are a bit rusty. Perhaps Navi might know? (btw, nice first post, 'gator). Anyhow, Jesus warned that there would be those who came in his name to lead us astray (Koresh leaps to mind). These people will be really slick. Whether Pat Robertson or Oral Roberts is a false prophet is a matter of opinion. And while Jesus says “Do not judge, or you to will be judged,” he goes on to say “for in the same way that you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you” (Matt. 7:1,2 NIV). I think this gives us some room to manuever. BTW, if you want to get a good feel for how Xns should act (really it applies to everyone), read the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5-7.
So the general consensus . . . yadda yadda …, Tris? You don’t even read your own posts, do you Slythe? My objection is to your prejudice, not to the point that many speak in Jesus name without his spirit. In that one sentence you make the same exact point yet again. Slythe, I am not a consensus. I am a person. I have no authority to declare who is a good Christian, and who is not. I try to follow Christ. When asked by someone for advice on how to follow Christ, I recommend that they seek to fill their hearts with love, and seek Christ in the spirit of love for Man, and God. I don’t give them a list of people who are condemned to Hell, or a list of acts that will make them unredeemable.
Well, those who can’t hear that would include the entire human race, since I don’t say that. (I don’t spend a lot of time whispering among myselves, though. Do you?) I don’t judge who is a True Christian, and who is not. You seem to be saying it though. Then you demand that I say it, and then you find fault with “all of us Christians” for not taking our turn at the hate pavilion. No, thanks. Looks like the line is pretty long already.
Slythe, if you are listening, I don’t pass out forgiveness. I am not the Savior of Man. I am not the one who reconciles. I am just another man, lost in a world of sin, trying to make it through the day. You are absolutely convinced that someone has the magic get out of hell free card, and the only part you seem upset about is that you don’t like the people you think have it. I don’t even know how to start correcting the misunderstanding you have.
Well, no, I don’t know how to tell this hypothetical man where he really should buy his Christ Team Sweatshirt for wearing on the day of Rapture. I don’t sell tickets to heaven. I don’t know that your poor lost soul would listen to me, if I did try to speak of the Lord to him. If he asks, though, I will try. But he is getting what he wants. He wants worldly recognition for his own righteousness, which Pat is selling wholesale. Jesus doesn’t protect his copyright. I haven’t got standing before any court to act to do so.
You’re gonna hate this one, but I am not automatically convinced that every follower of a tent rally money monger is spiritually bereft of the true Word. The preacher can’t stop Jesus, any more than he can command him. The old woman may seek the Lord on her own merit, whenever she chooses.
No, it isn’t yours, or mine. You insist that no one speaks of the spirit of Christ in the way that I do. I know that to be false, for many other posters on this board stand unwilling to condemn, unwilling to judge, and unwilling to deny the Love of Christ to any. I am not alone, although I am not part of a club. I am just one of many who wish to follow an example far beyond my own limits. I have been very angry with you. I am sorry. I should not express that to you. But you can certainly see that you have been repeatedly denying that I am doing exactly what I have done in every post. I speak in opposition to any voice that claims hatred to be the Word of God, as revealed by Christ.
But I do not, and must not speak in judgement of the souls of others. I have no authority to do so.
<P ALIGN=“CENTER”>Tris</P>
Love is the strongest force the world possesses, and yet it is the humblest imaginable.
– Mohandas Gandhi
You might remember the recent crusade of SDMB by LBMB. And you might recall (that the ones who most vehemently condemned the incursion were SDMB Christians. You might remember also that we started such threads as “Christians Who Hate Jesus”. You might say that it was we who held up David B. as the moral example for those so-called Christians to follow. And you might concede that some of the visitors from LBMB that settled here are decent folk who were ashamed of the tactic they witnessed. And said so.
You know, this might be a good time for those who call themselves atheists to take a stand against other atheists who prop up straw man religion politicians as “Christian leaders”.
Tris, I’m not the one who says that the Tvangelists represent Christians-THEY are.
Here’s a simple analogy:If someone started posting on this board using your name, and said things that were diametrically opposed to what you usually say, and posted fraudulent offers that required the sending of cash, would you sit back and have the same attitude? Would you call people who try to point out the fraud to you “Tris-haters”?
Oh, what the hell. Go ahead and shoot the messenger. If you want to attack me for pointing out the problem, go right ahead. It’s not like Jesus would do anything about the moneychangers in the temple.
He did what? So much for that excuse.
I think there is a lot of justification to calling them Christian leaders. They preach a message in the name of Christianity. They do so relatively unopposed. I think it is quite reasonable to assume that if you don’t reject them, then you accept them. (I mean the general you, not you Lib). Sure the people on this board reject them, but you must admit that the mainstream message people receive is that they are Christians, and Christian leaders.
Imagine you knew nothing or very little about Christianity, pretend you are an alien from another world. You come here. You watch some TV. Read some newspapers. Listen to some radio. Let’s even say you go to a church or two. Unless you got lucky and happened to go to a church that openly rejects them (which in my experience is few and far between), it is clear you would conclude that they are Christians, and Christian leaders.
Somebody said that the media doesn’t cover the ones who object to them. I find that hard to believe. The media thrives on conflict. My gut tells me that if there was a widespread rejection to them, it would be in the news. I couldn’t find anything searching archives on the Net.
(And you could make a good case for that being “doing Satan’s work!” :D)