What do Christians do about . . . "Christians"?

I have to agree with Slythe somewhat.

Don’t you think that the Christian leaders should be making a stand against them? I do, and my observation is that they don’t. Sure, if you ask them they’ll say they don’t agree but they should be telling their congregations about that. I think the problem is they are willing to look the other way because while they don’t agree with the extermity of their view, but they agree with the core essence of it.

I don’t think Christian do remotely enough to defend the word of God from being twisted. When God’s word gets twisted we get crusades, witch hunts and inquisitions.

“If the good will not combat the evil, then the good aren’t any use at all.”

“If good people do nothing, evil wins.”

Why aren’t good Christian leaders fighting them tooth and nail?


Nominee for 2nd Annual SDMB Awards:

  • Most rational in the face of a heated argument
  • BBQ Pit’s Rookie of the Year

Tris and Pariah speak for me. I’d add this: I am offended by people who are judgmental and claim to be speaking for the Man Who said “Judge not.” I’m offended by the people who preach hate in the Name of Him Who said “By this shall men know that you are my disciples, that you love one another.”

Being a bit judgmental myself of those who are judgmental about others, I’m not happy about the “cheap out” either. I’m also not thrilled about the Uncertainty Principle. But they both seem to be conditions of the world I live in.

Oh, and one added point…my denomination, at least, is being quite outspoken on the subject, while cleaning its own dirty laundry.

A couple of scriptures seem to come to mind. Both on how ‘hate-spewers’ should act and how we should respond to their actions.

Eph 4:29-32

Gal 5:22-26

These are tough teachings. Tough instructions. I cannot keep them except by submission to the will of Christ.

Peace.


† Jon †
Phillipians 4:13

This is the sort of topic that started all the “intolerance” on the LB, so to speak. I’m sure Navigator or Pariah or Mike could supply the scripture, or you could wait for me to look it up… If we see a brother (or sister) sinning or leading others astray, we are to correct them. This is not equal to judging them. It is not my place to say they are good or bad or they are going to hell or heaven. It is my place to tell them that they are turning people away from Jesus, and by doing that they are endangering their souls. Unfortunetly, it’s hard to do. How do you correct someone without coming off as judgmental?

Lauralee…by (1) holding firm to what you yourself believe as right, while (2) trying to see both sides of the picture…what the person apparently being intolerant is trying to say, and what the person he is condemning is faced with. If an answer to “What would Jesus do?” in that case doesn’t immediately come to mind, back off and pray about what you are called to do. If it does, then do it.

Incidentally, there was a thread related to this topic not too long ago, “You’re not a good Christian” – http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000461.html – it was started by Satan and turned into somewhat of a flame war, complete with a couple associated Pit threads. But there was still some interesting discussion on the issue.

Sorry, phouka, I thought you were speaking of yourself as a Christian. Didnt’ mean to offend you.


The Coyote gnaws …
but he does not swallow.

A couple of points if I may.

  1. These people (those mentioned as well as those that speak in a manner that is opposite to the words of Christ) are wrong in their message (at least in the message that they are most known).

  2. It should be dealt with by the local body of believers. That is the bible states how to handle situations where a believer is off track.

a) First the person should be careful that they have nothing in their lives that is sinful. How can I condemn someone for their actions if I should be condemned for my own?

b) The the person should confront the individual about the action. This should be done privately so as not to cause embarassment (note this should be done before it has gone to the point of the mentioned examples).

c) if the person is non-responsive, the original person should bring a couple of spiritually sound christians along as backup/witnesses. This helps the offened person know that it is not just one person’s opinion. They act as a, hopefully, impartial party, that can instruct the person in where they have deviated from God’s word.

d) if the person still does not respond and turn from their ways the original person along with the additional people should bring this matter before the person’s church. The church should then take action.

It should never get to the point of being a nationally known situation, unless the person is acting in a Christ-like manner and then in a national situation does something non-Christ-like.

Does my church speak out against these people? Not directly. If a situation arises however, our pastor will respond publicly as he sees fit.

Example, the Southern Baptist proposed boycott of Disney. Our preacher told us that we all have to make up our minds, but he himself did not support it and stated his reasons why. He left it up to us to decide for ourselves, but he did give his personal opinions.

Jeffery

StrTrkr777’s above post is scripturally sound on the handling of divisions within the body of believers, that is, the church.

Unfortunately, many Christians attend different churches. And even more distressing for the unification of believers, certain denominations frown upon other denominations, which can easily nullify an earnest request for consideration of offensive actions.

For instance, I belonged to a church that believes its particular body of believers are the only people saved. To accept correction from anyone outside that body would be ludicrous, in their eyes.

Nevermind what the Bible says.

So the guidelines above are effective for one’s affiliated body, that is, their own congregation–and should be effective in the entire body, as laid out in the groundwork of scripture–but alas, spiritual pride, one of the most insidious weapons the enemy utilizes in the ‘unseen warfare’ for the soul, tends to hanstring the credibility of many a stout believer due to the overwhelming numbers who espouse the ways of Christ while failing to look past their own selfish motivations.

I’ll use my old church as another example: when one was baptized, the person who introduced the new believer to the church was ‘credited’ with the salvation, in that the new believer was called so-and-so’s ‘fruit’, referring to the ‘fruit of the spirit’ Christ referred to (now now, stifle it, stifle it); little or no credit was given God’s plan for that believer. In fact, in order to be baptized, one had to ‘pass’ a certain amount of studies ‘to be sure that the individual was committed to believing.’ One was denied baptism on faith alone.

Just one of the reasons my wife and I left…

But I digress–

To address a believer in error, common ground must be sought. StrTrkr777 wrote:

I do not agree that one ‘cannot have sin in their life’ to build up or teach another; we’d have very few teachers if this were the case. But I believe, and correct me if I’m wrong, StrTrkr777, that the above refers to ‘continued sinful practice’ as opposed to utter sanctification from sin. We screw up all the time. The difference is whether or not we care to do something about it, or continue in hypocrisy. People have oftentimes called me on previous sin when I attempt to address a behavorial error in their walk. Can I own up to it? Have I addressed it? Have I corrected it? If so, then I can freely state such. If not, then I must be willing to hear them and accept their testimony.

Both of these must be exercised with integrity of character and humility, rather than a need for defensiveness and self-preservation.

The effort must be made to lead by example in the area of correction, that is, if one is involved in adultery, the ‘teacher’ must be free of that sin in their own life. (And much of the time, people who have been involved previously and have overcome that particular transgression will be involved with the counseling of the current ‘offender.’)

In the case of figureheads of Christianity, i.e. Billy Graham, Tim Storey, et al; their walk is their testimony. And Christians do watch them carefully. If they do not, they err on the side of people-pleasing (oh, it’s okay, it’s just once). Several figures in the spotlight have been thoroughly rebuked for behavior setting a bad example. (Jim-n-Tammy Bakker, Swaggart, even the Rev. Jesse Jackson, to name a few) and should be so.

Which brings us back to Christians who bludgeon the public with clubs of judgment and spite.

How do we deal with them, as believers?

Aside from mentioning the plank in their eye, all we can do is remind them that they’re not Christians by right: They’re Christians by grace. By invitation, if you will. We must use God’s word as our foundation, and remember one thing above all:

If correction comes before love, it is utterly useless.

Correction must always be a result of love, not of pride, or self-righteousness, or vindictiveness, or malice. it must be genuinely offered to build up, not to rip down.

Only then will the one who errs have a chance at receiving inspiration to correct themselves.


Insanity destroys logic, but not wit. Nathaniel Emmons

If we are out of our mind, it is for the Lord; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 2Cor.5:13

I said:

I left out something crucial: I should have included the bold, which I have now inserted.

To simply accept ‘well you do it, too’ should not be a given. This is why one should be free from the addressed sin in their own life before addressing the sin in another’s.

Better…

What are y’all talking about exactly?

Wild party. Hef’s mansion. New Years.

Shoulda been there.

Indeed. This is part of why I think religion, while often resulting in good deeds, is also a very dangerous thing. By and large religion is about following. And if that which one follows is good, all is well. But the exact same religious fervor (for lack of a better word) can result in one following that which is harmful. There are all too many examples of this thoughout history, and it is something that continues to this day.

It is curious to me that when a good Christian claims to be communicating directly with God, we accept this at face value, and even use this as evidence that the god in question is real. But when a “bad” Christian claims to be communicating directly with God, and as a result does or says hateful or intolerant things, we’re willing to say, “oh, that wasn’t really God he was talking to - that was his own mind making things up”. If one knows a priori that everything God says is “good”, then that can be used as a sort of filter to determine who is and who is not actually communicating with God (subject of course to one’s own fallibility). But if one doesn’t know that in advance, then from an outside perspective, these two cases appear identical. In both, you have someone claiming to be getting knowledge, wisdom, or instructions directly from an undetectable diety. This has always made me a bit uncomfortable, not because of all the good-hearted people who do it, but because the malicious ones often seem to draw the conviction to act from their believe that God is telling them to do so.


peas on earth

It depresses me that the image of a “Muslim” to most people is Osama bin Laden.

Many thanks for the personal attack, Tris-it did wonders for your non-argument. I have no hatred for Christians, but I do have a healthy fear of the Christian religion. You know, if a Satanist had a national program in which she/he professed to cast spells hither and yon, the uproar from the many Christian churches would be loud and furious.
Pat Robertson squints his beady little eyes and claims that somewhere a woman was just cured of cancer, or says that he diverted a hurricane through his prayer, and not a peep is heard on Sunday from the pastors. This is exactly what I mean by a Get Out Of Jail Free Card. Pat belongs to the “family” of Christianity, and we protect the family at all costs, don’t we?
At most, what you get are pastors saying,“Gee, I can’t tell you what to do, but maybe he is not doing the right thing.” Not the sermon you get when it comes to adultery, stealing, or murder, but then again we wouldn’t want to offend the old folks who worship at the feet of CBN or PTL, would we? They might decide not to come to church anymore, and then where would the collections and donations be?

There are so many controversies and debates over scripture interpretation within Christianity itself. There is only one common thread, and that is Christ.

I have a lot of views that are different from many Christians, yet I consider myself Christian, saved, reborn, what ever you wish. There are Christians who have told me that I am not. I suppose we’ll have to see in the end.

dragging soapbox in

I try and remember that (believe it or not) these people who are being judgmental and in-your-face are acting out of concern. In their hearts they TRUELY believe that you are damning your soul to hell for your actions. They only want you to be able to enjoy eternal salvation. If they were not acting out of love, they would not make the effort.


Jeremiah 29:11

What personal attack was that, Slythe? A personal defense, yes, and an angry one. You accused me, personally in your previous post.

In response to my post specifically stating that I believe the aforementioned evangelists were not speaking for Jesus. I object to your mischaracterization, and I believe it is likely that your willful ignorance of what was written immediately before your post can only have come from a prejudice you hold against Christians. You completely ignored my real response in favor of what you wish to believe I would say.

So, you now have cast another role for me to play the part of Christian bigot in your passion play. Sorry, it won’t work. The garment does not fit. Even a genuine Satanist, whom I have never met, could expect from me complete freedom to express himself, and cast spells about to his hearts content. I have no fear of Satanists, nor any hatred of them. More to the point, I believe with all my heart that my Lord loves them, and even Loves Satan himself. Love, again, is the answer.

Well, Slythe, you seem very familiar with what all the Christian pastors are saying to their parishioners. I suppose you spend a whole lot of time attending church. I can’t say, I don’t often attend any particular church, but I must admit, I have never heard that particular sermon you quote. The pastor from whom I learned the most telling lessons of faith spoke often that we cannot judge the hearts of others, and that we must lead our own hearts, not the hearts of others. Hating people who don’t meet specific theological standards was never mentioned.

There are assholes in the world, who are Christians. Some are not.

<P ALIGN=“CENTER”>Tris</P>

“I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others.”
–** Thomas Jefferson **

Ok, I’m really sorry about the asshole comment. It was remarkably inappropriate.

<P ALIGN=“CENTER”>Tris</P>

A man cannot be comfortable without his own approval.
– **Mark Twain **

Tris,

I think there is a good point in the asshole comment. Just cause someone goes around declaring themself Christian, doesn’t mean that they are, and it doesn’t mean they are without flaw or fault. It doesn’t automatically absolve them of fundamental human qualities (impatience, anger, intolerance, greed, etc…). Not sure if I’m making my point- the bottom line: in the end there will be one judge of us all. Nothing else matters. Anyone could talk up a storm- God knows the truth.


Jeremiah 29:11