The question has been asked of FloriDopers what they think of specific measures, but I’d like to know from all dopers whether you think the initiative process used in some states like California and Florida is a good idea, or have the people proven to be too gullible to make the choices necessary.
I was all for the process back when a measure called Proposition 13 in California prevented the legislature from taxing elderly residents out of homes they had lived in, sometimes for most of their lives, but now retired and on fixed incomes could no longer keep up with the tax collector. That proposition still seems right to me, but I have to admit that emotion played at least as much a part in my decision to support it as any “understanding” of the fiscal problems of the state as a whole. Guess I’m one of those bleeding hearts.
Do you think in general people are equipped, or even bright enough, to make decisions like these when the advertising on both sides of issues is so deliberately misleading? And if we do continue to supercede our state legislatures, how far is it likely to go? Is representative government a thing of the past? Should it be?
I think the initiative process provides a valuable check on monolithic, good-old-boy political games. It can be abused, of course, but the potential of going around the legislature helps keep them semi-honest, IMO.
I think it’s a good idea in theory, but in practice people just don’t take the time to educate themselves about issues and have historically proven they’ll vote for anything that sounds good. That makes it even easier for groups to get their agendas pushed through.
I had to do some research for work on this issue and Florida has something like a 90% approval rate for constitutional initiatives. If I had something I wanted to get into law, I know for a fact I’d take those odds over trying to get it vetted by the normal legislative process. While the perception might be that the initiative process is a way for us normal citizens to have a check on our legislative process, the reality is that special interest groups are more likely to benefit.
As corrupt and inefficient as our legislature can be sometimes, I think allowing the general populace to decide what makes it into our state constitution is a little ridiculous. If we care that much about the political process we should be active in helping elect legislators that know the system, know the issues, and will represent us well.
Remember, that the initiative process is not necessarily identical in every state that has initiatives. And the way that the citizens and politicians react to initiatives is not necessarily the same in every state. So, it depends on how things work (or don’t work) in that specific state.
Here (Washington) we’ve had the initiative process for 92 years - most of the state’s history. Unlike Florida, we can’t amend the constitution through the initiative process. In general, initiatives appearing on the ballot haven’t been rubberstamped (so far, 63 out of 125 initiatives to the people have been successful; initiatives to the legislature have a success rate of slightly under 2/3rds.)
Do people vote in ways I wish they wouldn’t? Of course. But some also vote against my wishes when they elect state representatives and senators.
I think it’s terrible. The average citizen is far too ignorant of public policy, political philosophy, etc., to be able to make informed decisions about legislation (and they’re too lazy to educate themselves). This is why the founding fathers set up the US as a republic instead of a direct democracy. Of course, it’s not like the elected representatives do a whole lot better, but at least they sometimes try.
I vote “No” on the vast majority of initiatives. I think that the process in California is absurd and full of special interests and poorly thought-out policy. Proposition 13, that the OP mentions being in support of, has had serious and lasting effects on the state’s ability to collect tax revenue. It’ll be even more absurd in another 50 years, when property tax levels are still frozen at 1970s levels.
It also pains me that it’s so easy to just change the state constitution with an initiative. All the time I see “Legislative and Constitutional Amendment”. See, they knew that whatever hare-brained law they were trying to pass was unconstitutional, so they just changed the constitution as well.
I think the process is stupid. The initiatives we get here in California all seem to be designed to benefit one special interest or another; and inevitably get tied up in courts forever, before (often) being struck down.
I can’t think of the last bit of actual policy-setting legislation that came out of Sacramento. It seems the CA legislature has abdicated all responsibility for anything controversial, turning it over to the intiative process.
Another Californian here. The initiative process is a disaster. People voting on initiatives don’t have to make the hard choices that legislators do. Money for schools - that sounds good, I’ll vote for it. Money for police? That will raise my taxes, I’'ll vote against it. Half the referendums are misnamed, the other half have fine print most people don’t see. It’s no wonder why the legislature doesn’t do anything when an initiative can screw everything up. How many times am i going to have to vote against parental notification for abortions anyway?
If each initiative proponent had to get volunteers to get signatures, it might work a bit better, but now the special interests, on both sides, hire signature gatherers. It’s all about money, not real support. The TV and radio stations are doing fine, though.
Prop. 13, btw, is another disaster. There are lots better ways of giving retired people tax relief. Prop. 13 means that old people don’t seel their too big houses, since moving to a smaller one would drastically increase their tax bill. Prop 13 means that I pay pretty much the same tax bill I did 10 years ago even though my house has over doubled in value and my salary has gone up by 50%. It’s also the reason when we moved from New Jersey my kids were 1/2 to a year ahead of kids their age in California.
California initiatives are either proposed by a grass-roots organization, and swamped by a flood of corporate money; or vice versa.
The advertising begins months in advance, by the better funded pro/anti group. And it’s like the marketing group that designs the ads has a checklist –
Here in Michigan, we don’t rubber stamp proposals. In fact, 3 of the 5 proposals up for vote yesterday failed. I may be bias right now, because all five proposals fell the way I wanted them to, but the process seems to work around here.
The proposals, by the way, were:
Prop. 1: Something about ensuring that money in the conservation fund doesn’t get diverted to other purposes. I didn’t really understand this proposal, and as far as I know this has never been a problem before, so I voted against it. It failed. It seems like most people I know didn’t really know what to think of this proposal either.
Prop. 2: A ban on race- and gender-preferences in state contracts. Basically a ban on affirmative action. This was the controversial one. It passed.
Prop. 3: A proposal to allow the hunting of mouring doves. This failed. There doesn’t seem to have been a lot of support for this proposal. Mourning doves don’t cause any problems, so most of us were like, “Why are we going to be hunting them, again?”
Prop. 4: A reaction to Kelso v. New London, this restricts the governments’ ability to use emminent domain. Basically, they can’t take property and give it to a private party, and when they do take property, they have to pay the owner 125% of the home’s value. This one passed with something like 80% approval.
Prop. 5 : A constitutional ammendment that would guarantee teachers automatic raises. Soundly defeated by voters who saw it as the blatant money-grab it was. Tell you what, guys, you guarantee me automatic raises, and I’ll do the same for you, 'k?
Exactly – word it in as appealing a way you can, and you can get the sheep to vote for anything, including a pregnant pig amendment.
Interestingly, most of the ballot initiatives in FL this time were put on there BY the legislature, rather than the citizen “petition” initiative process. And even when the petition process is used, more often than not its initiated by some special interest group, not by actual “concerned citizens”.
Another California voter here - I am fundamentally opposed to the initiative process.
We hired the state legislature to do a job. If we want to do the job ourselves, then we should get rid of the legislature. In my fantasy world the first item to vote for on the initiative ballot should always be “Dissolve the legislature”, if you vote “No” then all of your votes on the other initiatives are null and void. Do we have a representative form of government or not? We shouldn’t/can’t have it both ways.
Yesterday, one passed and two were defeated. So, at least people aren’t just checking “yes” to all of them.
In the states where they seem to work less, do you have local initiatives as well? Or just statewide ones? Are the local initiatives equally as flawed?
Yes. In my county, we had an amendment on the ballot to implement a half cent sales tax to provide health care for the uninsured; however, it was defeated by about 60%. Given the makeup of registered voters in the county I was sure it would be closer.
Had it passed, we would have become the county with the highest sales tax (at 8%), though we currently have the lowest number of uninsured of all counties in the state.
There was some controversy over county dollars being spent to promote the plan. A mailer was sent to all residents that did not clearly state both sides of the issue, and did not explain the details of the plan.
Everybody probably remembered the last time a 1/2 cent sales tax hike went on the ballot (and that one passed). Maybe a few people wised up since then?
Yep – I got that mailout. It was a big “rah rah rah!” for the tax hike proposal, only pushing one side. Making big promises and telling us how little it would really cost us. And spending our tax dollars to promote the new tax hike to us.
All of the statewide constitutional amendents in FL were passed, BTW. At least locally, this one failed 60% to 40%. And I’m with you, Jetgirl – I was surprised by that large a margin given the county we’re in.
The California initiative process is out of control and gives the State Congress an excuse not to work on anything remotely controversial. “We’ll just throw this to the voters, let them try to sort through a hash of deceptive ads, and do whatever they want!”
Thanks for all your comments. I had hoped that in the wake of the elections of only a week ago that there would be more interest. But perhaps people are just sick of politics for the time being. I don’t blame them.
I welcomed the initiative process back in Prop 13 days (California), but, as I said, I voted more from emotion than knowledge. The main thing I see against the idea of a statewide plebecite is that most voters are not grounded enough in existing law to know what is even constitutional, much less what will work for the benfit of the state. Without the better prepared work of the legislature there is always a danger that things smay be enacted that represent the “tyranny of the majority” as Jefferson called it.
On the pro side, bond issues and the like, especiallty since almost all eventually will result in increased taxes, might well be decided by the people who will ultimately pay those taxes.
One thing is certain. It will always be difficult for the voters to know who is telling the truth during the campaign. Of course big tobbacco was against the added tobacco tax in California. But that alone was not enough reason to vote for it.
Thanks again for the comments. Looks like we’re pretty well done with this one.
Can somebody please briefly explain to this non-Merkin what these “initiatives” are? I come from a place where we simply vote for politicians, and they decide everything. If we don’t like it, we vote them out next time. The exception is the occasional referendum where the people directly vote on proposed constitutional changes. Now, my limited understanding is that Americans vote on issues as well as voting for people. Is that all an “initiative” is? Or is it something more specialised?
Forgive my ignorance, but the American political system remains quite complex and alien to me, even though I try to understand it.