What do I look for in a Kung-fu school?

I have successfully used Aikido in a bar fight situation. It’s a good art for gently setting a tipsy and aggressive guy on his ass on the floor. That’s about all I can say on the topic–I find it hard to find instructors for it these days, though.

The nicest thing about aikido is that it’s a totally non-offensive art with a lot of defensive options–you can set people down gently or you can break bones with a lot of structurally similar moves. The downside of aikido is that it’s a non-offensive art–there are literally no aggressive moves, only responses to incoming blows or grapples. I have a fair bit of tang soo do for that, though.

Note also that body type and personal preference are important here–I chose aikido and tang soo do because I have powerful legs and core strength, and I’m a pretty husky guy. Thus, a kicking-based offensive art and a defensive art that relies on being fluid but mostly stationary are ideal for me. Your mileage will vary.

It needs emotional content.

Something being studied for self-defense needs emotional content? Could you elaborate a bit? (Not snark, I’m just interested in why you might think that.)

Aikido is not good for ‘gentle self defense’. It’s good for gentle self defense on people who A) also know aikido or B) are too drunk/otherwise inebriated to resist. If they do resist, there’ll be one of two outcomes: either you’re going to get your butt kicked, or, if you’re exceptionally good at aikido, the attacker is going to go home with some broken bones in the arm region. In order to get to that point of it being useful on non-slobberingly-drunk-folk, you’d have to train decades. Additionally, I doubt you’ll be able to find someone who will teach you ‘practical’ aikido: every dojo I’ve ever heard of puts a significant emphasis on ‘spiritual development’, meditation, and other woo-woo stuff.

Again; traditional martial arts are not self defense. They can, after years and years of serious study, help with defending yourself, but by that point you’ve probably learned to avoid situations where you’d need to do so. Boxing, BJJ, wrestling, and krav maga are pretty much the only MAs that have any significant worth for self-defense.

That was actually my attempt at being funny (guess it failed). It is Bruce Lee quote from his film “Enter the Dragon.”

I never suggested a weapon, particularly if you are amateur with those as well. A dog, an audible alarm, and deadbolt will all do more for family self defense. If you are looking for an excuse to learn martial arts it has to be for the exercise or the enjoyment, not because you think you are the next Caine.

The subject of martial arts and self defence is one where there is still a helluva lot of ignorance that needs to be fought. This is serious “pet-peeve” territory for me.

My background: I started training in taekwondo at the age of 16, and really enjoyed myself. My intstructor at the time was not satisfied with what we were learning and eventually became associated with the “British Combat Association”, run by the near-legendary Geoff Thompson and Peter Consterdine.

Several training sessions with these guys later, and we were no longer doing Taekwondo. Nowadays, I am a registered instructor with the BCA, run a school locally and teach/train for 8 hours every week.

If you are looking for self defence - the ability to deal with a violent confrontation in the real world - then you need to ensure that your instructor has either been there themselves and dealt with it enough times to know that what they do, works (and you also need to be aware that martial arts instructors usually have no problem lying or being deliberately vague on the subject) or that they have learned directly from someone who has.

For the record, the guys who have been there and done that (Geoff Thompson: over 300 street fights during his career as a doorman in Coventry) tend to recommend the following for a well rounded self defence education:

Boxing - because you learn how to hit hard and after getting through the initial stages, you get experience in an environment in which someone is actually trying to knock you out. Punching is infinitely more useful in the real world than kicking, if only because it takes less time to develop competence with punches but especially because violent confrontation takes place at punching range more often than not.

Put that together with Judo. Judo is more of a sport nowadays, but its still great training. You learn how to throw people who are trying to throw you and are pretty good at not being thrown themselves. It’s very hard work, you’re trying to control a person who is trying to control you. It’s top-notch stuff.

The combination of Boxing and Judo for self defence is similar to the concept of mixed martial arts/UFC fighting. These guys have to deal with some factors which aren’t necessarily relevant to self defence though; a highly trained opponent who knows most of th same stuff you do; a ring and a canvas mat; a referee. MMA tends to place a lot of focus on groundfighting/submissions - especially in the amateur competitions, where strikes to the head are not allowed, so it’s difficult to finish the fight any other way. You really, really don’t want to focus on groundfighting for self defence.

Whether or not you choose to take the advice on the specifics I’ve laid out in this post, I do implore you to do the following: observe as many martial arts classes as you can and look for the following:

Are they working hard?
Are they working against an opponent who is actively resisting them?
Are they sparring?

and most importantly…who would you least like to face in a fight?

My money says the boxers scare you the most. That’s who you should be training with.

If that’s “too brutal” or “doesn’t fit in with your lifestyle”, that’s ok - but you need to be aware that anything else is a poor second to whatever you turn away from for these reasons. Doing martial arts for it’s own sake is great, but often a little bit of knowledge is worse than ignorance when it comes to self defence.

There’s no such thing as a “bad style” per say…if the instructor is good, anything can work. However, there are styles which have a reputation for being crappy when it comes to self defence, and they include Aikido, Jui Jitsu, Taekwondo, all Kung Fu (including Wing Chun, in all it’s spellings), Ninjitsu and a lot of Karate styles. Even the current fad of Krav Maga is more wishful thinking than anything else. Despite the inherent flaws in any given style, there will always be someone who CAN make it work - but then, that person could probably turn ballet into an offensive art. What you are looking for is a style where the vast majority of the class are fighting effectively.

Nowadays, I run a school with my father in law. When we first started training together, we had a great system; loads of sparring, fitness training and work on bags and pads. Since then, he’s been indoctrinated into this weird system of “joint locks and pressure points” and spends most of his time teaching what is - quite obviously - impractical nonsense. What’s worse is that he is the older voice of experience, and so the students are more inclined to listen to him. This is a source of immense frustration for me, as my classes still centre around the same old formula - loads of hard work, applying simple techniques to pressured situations, get the job done.

It just goes to show that even someone with decades of experience in martial arts can be lead down the garden path. So, keep your head screwed on straight when making your decision. Look for practicality, not fairy tales. Keep your bullshit detector on high alert. Good luck!

Good thoughts.

Interestingly, Judo was always a sport by most definitions. It was invented as such, taking martial techniques from other Japanese styles and turning them into sport techniques.

I based my “nowadays” comment on the basis of the lack of atemi - striking techniques - in modern-day judo. Not many head butts in the Olympics!

It’s entirely feasable that these kind of techniques could have been allowed at some point in competition though.

Inigo Montoya
OK, seeing as this is IMHO, I’ll give you my personal humble opinion. FWIW, I have the equivalent of a brown belt in Kali and the same in Jiu Jutsu.
First of all, forget about Kung fu. No doubt there are real kick-ass Kung-fu people running around but they didn’t get that way taking 3 lessons each week for a couple of years. Before Kung Fu is any good in a serious fight you have to spend a VERY long and VERY dedicated time practicing it. The average guy who takes Kung Fu and gets in a serious fight is going to have his ass handed to him.

Judo, TKD and Aikido are better but again IMHO, iffy. Aikido and judo both worry about damaging your opponent and keeping him from committing a violent act etc etc. This isn’t what you’re looking for right now. TKD is a really great workout but those high and fancy kicks will get you hurt in a fight. IMHO, TKD has evolved into more of a sport than a true MA.

For spur-of-the-moment confrontations using an unarmed style, I’d take Jiu Jutsu. This has an astonishing range of techniques, most of which will seriously hurt someone. (Broken bones, dislocations, strangulation) N.B. JJ is particularly good if you are short and have a low center of gravity. The down side to this is that the wide range of techniques take quite a while to learn.
An alternative might be Thai boxing. NOT Kick boxing which is a very watered-down, weak-sister version of Thai boxing. The down side to Thai boxing is the training and conditioning. The workouts are incredibly stressful. I trained with a Thai boxer for a while and thought I was going to die. Thai boxing is very good for whipping on people as it uses knees, elbows, head butts, punches and kicks. This is a very “in your face” aggressive style and works well.

If you prefer a style that likes weapons, try some of the SE Asian things like Kali. They start out using sticks and graduate to edged weapons before finally teaching unarmed techniques.
I have no experience with Krav Maga but it has a great reputation.

In general, I’d be very leery of dojos that won’t let you watch or even try a lesson or two. The other sign of serious problems are dojos where they mumble about “chi” or any other kind of spiritual powers. Also, watch how the instructor demonstrates things. He should do it slowly and carefully and make an effort not to wreck his student. There are some instructors that demo things to show what a bad-ass they are. These are good to avoid.

Last but not least, nothing is going to work unless you are willing to bust your ass and occasionally get hit. A lot of being ready for a fight is understanding that getting hit isn’t the end of the world.

Hope that helped.

Testy

…And of course, when asking for advice about martial arts, be prepared for a wide range of totally contradictory opinions :slight_smile:

IOMDave
Indeed yes. :slight_smile: I wish I’d mentioned boxing though. Boxers can be very difficult to deal with. It’s hard to hit them with strikes and they don’t collapse when you do.
We differ a bit on JJ and Judo but aside from that I agree very much with what you say.

Best regards

Testy

Just out of curiosity…what is the basis of your opinion on Judo?

Nice post IOM Dave. How do you get on teaching boxing? The stamina required for boxing 3 minute rounds is unreal - really tough conditioning needed. I guess that’s the sport of boxing, rather than self-defence boxing. It’s interesting though that even pro-boxers struggle with the stamina - there was a great cruiserweight fight last weekend between David Haye and Jean-Marc Mormeck - world class fighters both of whom have serious issues with lasting a 12 round pace.

I’d like to clarify that as a martial arts instructor focussed on self defence, I am not a specialist. I don’t have a “boxing class” specifically; it is a part of what I teach in every class, alongside techniques from Judo, Wrestling and kicking. Well, I say kicking techniques - it basically boils down to low roundhoulse kicks to the legs for me :slight_smile:

As you correctly point out, sport is very different to self defence. You never want to think in terms of minutes when it comes to self defence - you want to finish it in seconds. The longer you’re fighting, the more likely that you get hurt, either by your opponent, his mates, his girlfriend or by random passers-by. Of course, you can’t guarantee this outcome, so we usually deal with the stamina thing by doing timed rounds of sparring/padwork etc. One class every week is combat-themed circuit training, which of course helps with fitness and conditioning.

I find that grappling training wears you out faster than anything else. By working the throws, takedowns and groundfighting in the same way, your ability to handle several minutes of anything goes up dramatically.

Here’s an example from tonight’s kids class. There were 8 kids there today, so I had one stand in the centre of the mats while the others sat by the side. One by one, the kid in the middle had to try and throw the others. They had 30 seconds to do so, and had to go the full time unless they successfully threw their opponent. So the incentive is to work hard and finish it fast, or you have to fight for longer. This usually results in 3-4 minutes of hard work against fresh opponents for everybody. Those that are good at the throws get a chance to really go for it, and those that aren’t up to speed yet get to pick themselves up and keep on going, which really is the essence of what you need to be a good fighter.

But for competition - 12 rounds or so - you better get yourself a specialist coach.

IOMDave
Sorry, I would have got back to you last night, but time zones got to me and I went to sleep instead. :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t dislike Judo or take it lightly but I do but consider it a watered-down version of Jiu Jutsu. Mr. Jigoro Kano took some Jiu Jutsu styles and removed all the strikes and a lot of the other nasty stuff that (IMHO) makes JJ a good art. The slick throws that Judo uses mostly came from JJ.
As an example, a judoka will throw someone and follow him down to pin him or do a choke or lock. In JJ I was taught to throw someone and then either kick him in the head a couple of times or come down on him with a knee before looking for something to break/dislocate.
I’m way too old for competitions but do want something effective for making sure my opponent doesn’t get up.

All the best.

Testy

*Bolding mine.

IOMDave
That part about finishing an actual fight in seconds is almost word-for-word what all my better instructors have said.

Regards

Testy

Testy - these guys obviously had their heads screwed on straight. You should feel lucky for finding instructors who aren’t totally full of bull - a very common affliction in the world of martial arts.

The basis of my opinion on Judo comes from anecdotal evidence and experience training in a Judo school for a short while to see for myself. The massive upside to it is the quality of the average training session in the average school. The argument that Judo is “sanitised” or watered-down because of it’s lack of striking techniques is certainly valid, which is why for a well-rounded self defence education you NEED a solid striking system as well. However, the upside to taking out the striking is that you can train just about everything full-speed, full-power, against someone else that’s doing the same. In addition, the emphasis on competition and “competitive gradings” - most schools still have the system of fighting for your new belts - makes for very focussed, hard training.

The argument for Jui-Jitsu is that it contains more potent techniques. While this is certainly true, you’re lucky if you can find a JJ school with the quality of training of a typical Judo school, because of the “too dangerous to do to completion” trap, which tends to interfere with the intensity of the training, and the ability to work your stuff full speed, full power. Show me a martial art which doesn’t have “deadly” techniques and I’ll show you a bunch of hard bastards who’ll put you on your ass.

I don’t teach “deadly” techniques on purpose because I am convinced that they will slow the development of my students. On the subject of self defence, I’m not really sure you want to be thinking about, much less programming yourself to stamp on someone’s face. You get put away from stunts like that! Best reason to put a guy on the floor is to get away before he gets up, or to get access to a choke/strangle. Start kicking his face and your chance of causing fatal injury shoots through the roof. Looking for joint locks/breaks in the real world is not the greatest idea either; the last thing you want to do is get down on the floor with them. We no longer live in the age of a “fair go” sadly enough; you can never assume that you’re facing just one opponent.

You may be one of the fortunate few to find a high-quality JJ school, if so congrats. If you’re in any doubt, commit yourself to 6 months at a Judo school - one which still does the “fight for your belt” system - and do what I did, see for yourself. I walked away convinced, and wouldn’t have walked away at all if it wasn’t for my responsibility to my own school and my own students.

Cheers,
David

I just attended my first krav maga class and I’m, well, a total wimp so it was interesting. The emphasis was on making sure you didn’t get hit and then ending the fight quickly. Like, how to get up off the ground without leading by sticking your head in the path of someone’s boot. Seems practical. A lot of it was about awareness. My defense strategy so far has been “don’t get into fights” and even if I keep going to this class that would remain my preferred defense strategy, but as far as focusing on self defense as opposed to competition, it seemed good.

The school I’m at let us try out a class. I got the feeling they’d have let us try more than one if we needed to to make a decision, and there was no sales pressure at all, although there is a membership fee - but again, the school has a three month introductory fee which is probably a good balance between them needing a regular income and not gouging people straight up. It was comparable to a gym fee and includes as many classes as we care to attend.

But obviously I am the opposite of an expert, just sharing my experience as a total novice trying to get a bit of physical fitness + an interesting education. The last thing I want is ever to have to actually use any of it.

I misread this as “how to get up off the ground by sticking your head in the path of someone’s boot”, and was all set to berate you for being a total moron.

But that would have been pretty silly of me.

Dave
You’ve really got a point there on being able to go full steam ahead on a technique. That’s something I need to consider carefully. How real can you get without losing students to injury? Possibly this is why Thai boxing works so well. There are lethal techniques, (elbow to the temple, usually) but the Thais don’t expect to kill anybody and generally they don’t, so they’re free to wail away on someone. In JJ, we used mouth guards, cups, and a light sparring helmet which allowed us to go a good bit faster on most things. No spear-hand strikes to the eyes or front of the throat but most other things were fair game. And yes, we had to fight for the belt. My wife just about covered my ancient carcass in Tiger Balm after those. :stuck_out_tongue:

I hadn’t realized how fortunate I’ve been until your posts but yes, I’ve been lucky over here and I credit that to a couple of different things:

a) Teaching MA is not any kind of big business. There are a very few commercial dojos available and in general, MA is taught by someone who just loves the art and wants to teach and work out themselves. This gets rid of a lot of people that are just in it for a quick buck. The flip-side of that is you have to be careful who you get involved with but the good ones are quite willing to be questioned on this.

b) I’m working in Saudi and there are no, or at least very, very few, personal liability lawsuits so instructors are able to push things a lot harder, make them more realistic. (And more painful!) In Kali class we used actual butcher knives and daggers for defense and offensive training. They were dulled but still dangerous. JJ training was much the same but without the weapons. Of course you still can’t quite complete some techniques but that has to have been true throughout history.

From your posts I’m getting a sense that JJ in the US/UK(?) isn’t taught like this so maybe what I’m praising is not what you’re seeing. It would be a disappointment to see a JJ class run as a diploma mill. Those classes hurt the worst and I feel an attachment to it. I suppose I understand the reasons behind it but still hate to see something that has evolved over many centuries become nothing more than a form of healthy exercise. (Seriously off-topic but a hot-button for me.)

As far as kicking the guy after you’ve thrown him, I take your point about being locked up for this. OTOH, my instructors have been unanimous about not allowing the guy back on his feet as he’s going to be seriously pissed. :stuck_out_tongue:

My Kali and JJ instructors have moved on and I’m at loose ends right now. I haven’t seen any Judo in the Kingdom but haven’t really been looking for such. I’ll give it a try if I can find one, you’ve made a very good point.

All the best.

Testy