I’ve followed Thai politics with bemusement for many years, but the events of the past few days have presumably put the present crisis in overseas headlines. I wonder what impression Americans and other outsiders have formed about the political issues in Thailand. (I’m not looking for the “correct” interpretation of Thai politics; I’m interested in the impression outsiders get, whether based on reporting or their own common sense.)
Perhaps I should have formulated this as a Poll. Some of the questions I’d ask are:
[ul][li] Who’s right, who’s wrong?[/li][li] Which side is pro-people, which pro-elite?[/li][li] What do the “red shirts” want?[/li][li] Are general elections the solution?[/li][li] What are commentators saying?[/li][/ul]
I have visited Thailand 3 times in the past, and I have no desire to ever visit again.
The price gouging, fake smiles, and hostile attitude of many of the people just make it a place I do not want to be.
The fact that the country cannot control its own airports makes me feel as though the country and its people are very unstable. I am referring to the airport being overtaken and controlled by protesters the last time they had a crisis.
I am guessing the red-shirts are the ones that are supposed to be “pro-people”.
I follow the politics there somewhat due to having visited there in the past, but I do not take the country and its people seriously because of the many scams, lies, and murders of foreigners that frequently take place in Thailand.
On the surface the country has the reputation as the “land of smiles”, but if you have more experience in the country, and seek the truth, then you can see that the people in general just hate foreigners, and only want whatever money can be taken or scammed from visitors.
Any country that can so easily release control of its airports to protesters , and let the visitors suffer, is just not a place where I want to visit or live.
I guess if I took the country or its people more seriously then I would take the time to understand what is happening and why, but because of so many of my own bad experiences in Thailand then I just cannot respect a country that does not respect me.
Who’s right, who’s wrong? - Red Shirts are currently the most wrong. I have a big problem with them because I feel it’s all agitating sponsored by money from Shinawatra and his ilk. Current government is also probably to blame a bit since they haven’t yet called for new elections, because they are, correctly, afraid that Thaksin will buy his way back into power. It’s not a good situation. I’d like to see the King to ask the “protesters” to stand down.
Which side is pro-people, which pro-elite? Reds are paying more to the agitators, so I guess they’re more pro-people. Elites are always going to run the country.
What do the “red shirts” want? To get paid?
Are general elections the solution? Probably not unless there is a way to stop the election fraud. Thaksin and his buddies just laugh at the election boards.
What are commentators saying? Not really sure. One thing that worries me is that the Red side is using the demonstrators as cannon fodder to try and get more public opinion on their side.
@simple homer: Not sure that Stickman is your best place to get a solid view of Thai people. It for sure gives you a view to one segment, but to believe that is the only segment is a bit wrong-headed. Sure, that’s the side that tourists (for days, weeks, months or years) see, especially if they stay in or near Pattaya, Phuket, Koh Samui, Sukhumvit or Patpong. If you get to know some of the folks who don’t fleece people for a living they can be pretty wonderful.
Your original question was “…what impression Americans and other outsiders…” have formed about Thai politics. Your poll, of course, will only have participants who answer poll questions on the SDB. They are not typical of Americans in general. If you asked the average American what he or she thought about Thai politics, your answer almost certainly would be “Huh? What’s Thai politics?”
I’ve been fortunate to visit Thailand many times, even leaving during the height one of the coups, that caused a change of government, protesters clogging the streets, etc.
I think Thailand is a study in what happens when you try to foist democracy upon cultures that have no real experience with it. This country was forced into a parliamentary format following the war. That they didn’t know how to make it work, was beside the point. As a result, they prefer to change government by coup rather than elections. Corruption/abuse of political power has had no real effective check, in the years since, and is now the underlying problem.
Democracy works best when the people make it/demand it. When it’s foisted upon cultures that are not ready, it doesn’t work correctly and gets misshapened in remarkable and diverse ways.
Even in places where it works but is shaped slightly differently than the west’s version, it is roundly denounced, as in Singapore. These are cultures that are more accustomed to a father figure form of benevolent leadership than democracy as we see it.
I think the Thai’s are experiencing growing pains, effectively. I am confident they will come through it better and stronger. They are fortunate that they have a beloved king who can step in and calm the waters or chastise the ill behaved, when push comes to shove. He acts with great restraint, largely, which gives his voice all the more meaning when he does speak up. And neither side would dare to defy him.
Most likely they wouldn’t know what a Tie Land is other than maybe a men’s clothing store. I follow the news closely and read a lot and I have no idea what is happening in Thailand or even Canada or Mexico for that matter. The stereotype is true that Americans don’t generally see beyond our own borders. I learned from this thread that there is something going on there but I still don’t know the specifics. I do love Thai food though if someone wants to start a Cafe Society thread on that topic.
I know nothing about Thailand. I know they have a king, people seem to like him, he’s sensitive about his image and someone wrote a book once that pissed everyone off. I think I know that China has a large influence on Thailand’s politics. I have no idea what the current situation is about, beyond someone threw blood at some point for some reason. I should look it up, because one of my best friends is having surgery in Bangkok right now and he says his hospital is quite close to the action.
I don’t generally follow politics. I only follow US politics because I’m right here in the middle of it. I have numerous Thai friends (that live in Thailand) who are only vaguely aware of their own politics. But a recurring theme that I seem to hear is that there is a corruption problem that prevents a lot of good things (i.e. urban development, mass transit) from coming to fruition. That is, if true, a shame.
This is extremely unfair. You are taking a single event from history and throwing it back in their face. I could just as easily say that the US can not control its own domestic terrorism issue and keep people from blowing up buildings, resulting in dozens of deaths.
In my experience could not be further from the truth. I’ve never been anywhere else where I have felt so welcomed as Thailand. As for the money/scamming, we have that here too, except here people get your money by mugging and/or killing you. At least in Thailand you have the option to say no if the price is too high.
And what about corporate scams in the US, those should count for something.
I guess you see where I am going. I know you were just speaking from your own impressions but I don’t see where a lot of that has anything to do with politics. For every distasteful thing you can find to complain about in Thailand, I can probably find an equivalent that is 100 times worse right here in the good old US of A.
Most of my opinion of Thailand comes from personal experience.
Only some of my opinion comes from Stickman. Other then personal experiences, my opinion has also been shaped by Thailand’s visa policies and also on how the police and Thailand in general handles murders and other crimes against foreigners.
My understanding is that many of the Thai people repeatedly rob and murder tourists without punishment.
It is easy to Google and find many reports of murders of tourists being falsely reported by the Thai government as suicide or accidents. The many false arrests of foreign customers of the King Power shops in the airports is just a small sample of the abuse and extortion of foreigners.
It is the police and government involvement in the abuse of tourists that disgusts me.
Yes, I am sure there are many wonderful people there, but there is also a huge number of people that fleece and abuse tourists for a living, and others that just do not care to stop the abuse.
The reports coming out of Bangkok now is that the police have fled the streets, and the protesters have taken over. Current reports say that 21 people have been killed and nearly 900 wounded so far in the current protests.
“Protesters remained on the streets of Bangkok, a day after the country’s worst political violence in nearly two decades.”
Do a little more reading and you can find many instances of physical abuse and murder of tourists that have been covered up by the Thai government.
My experience is that those warm welcomes and smiles are fake. Just try walking the streets of Bangkok with someone that understands Thai and the horrible things that are said by many of the people.
Were the police even involved against the protesters in the first place? Shinawatra, who the Reds support, is a former police lieutenant colonel, married to the daughter of a former police general. Most Thais consider the police incredibly corrupt. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that many Thai police are sympathetic to or even aiding the protesters.
The reports I’ve seen talk about soldiers, not police being killed. This is an important distinction for two reasons:
the military are generally respected by the Thais, while the police are not.
the military, or least factions, were involved in the coup that toppled Thaksin. So they are more likely loyal to Abhisit, although this is certainly not absolute.
I mention the police because I would normally expect them to help maintain law and order.
No Thai respect for corrupt police just goes along with the opinions that I have already formed.
Nobody’s right. All participants, with insignificant exceptions, are just out for power and wealth.
There is no “pro-people” side; one side is more heavily invested in recruiting mobs, that’s all.
The Red Shirts, taken as a whole, want to get paid. Thaksin, the only one who really counts, wants his graft back.
General elections? Democracy in Thailand is a sham. I’d say Thailand is really a kleptocracy; a primitive warlord-led society distorted beyond recognition by modern international economics and finance. The trappings of liberal democracy are grafted on for foreign consumption, and used as another weapon in the warlords’ fight for power.
I have no idea what commentators are saying, except for the little I’ve been led to here. My impression is that American news agencies are accepting the surface story, and maybe others are too. I don’t know what the U.S. government is saying, nor what they believe, nor what any other government says or believes.
There may be much truth in Nametag’s comments, unfortunately, but I’d hope to take a slightly less pessimistic view. And to condemn all political movements as being “out for power” is to ignore that that is the essential purpose of politics!
By the way, I think a large majority of University Professors and students take the “yellow-shirt” side, which may mean something.
But what is the “surface story”? Are the red-shirts a “people power” movement fighting the “elite” or are they armed terrorists operating against a relatively liberal government?
It’s sad (and surprising) that you visited Thailand 3 times and didn’t encounter a genuine “Siam smile.” There are a tiny number of Thais whose “job description” calls for cheating foreigners; if they’re doing their “job” right, then they may be the ones you meet! Perhaps that was the problem. (Some Thais do tend to be racist but hostility is directed against South Asians, not Westerners.) And please don’t blame “Thais” for price gouging, much of which is directed by ethnic Chinese or (in major tourist areas) by American-owned businesses.
Since you’ve visited 3 times and therefore “have more experience in the country”, perhaps I should mention that I’ve worked and lived in Thailand for a total of more than 200 months, speak fluent Thai, have Thai wife and two half-Thai kids, lived in 8 provinces and holidayed in more than a dozen more.
Of course I encountered genuine “Siam smile”, but I am still disturbed by the governments participation in the cover ups of many assaults and murders of tourists.
I am sure you are aware of the “Pattaya flying club”, and that is just a small part of the problem.
There are a few American owned businesses, but are you referring to American franchises such as KFC and Subway ? Those are not American owned, those are franchises owned by Thais. I am not aware of more than just a few businesses owned by Americans, and they do not have a reputation for price gouging, as far as I know.
The “ethnic Chinese” are not Chinese citizens, they are Thai. That is just as silly as claiming that the Irish in America are Irish despite their families having lived in America for a 100 or more years.
The 'ethnic Chinese" are just as Thai as anyone else whose families have been there for generations.
You have a lot more experience in Thailand, so I am sure that you know and understand more than me.
But, for the past 10 years I have lived in and visited countries such as China, Colombia, Philippines, Cambodia and Cuba, among many others, and in those countries I did not feel the anti-foreigner attitude as strongly as I did in Thailand.
Those other countries also have controversial reputations, but I would gladly live in or visit them again.
I’d be perfectly happy not knowing a single thing about any of it. Like a family that has screaming fights a couple of blocks down with pans and bottles thrown and the police showing up on domestic dispute calls every couple of weeks – if you asked me, “who do you think is right, the Mr. or the Mrs.?” my only response would be “dude, the only opinion I have is I’m glad they live so far away.”
I might partially agree with much of what you’ve said, simple homer. Perhaps I over-reacted to what seemed like overly “broad brush strokes.”
I assume by “Pattaya Flying Club” you refer to alleged suicides by Westerners living in Pattaya. Let me offer these comments:
[ul][li] Some foreigners with problems or strange histories have chosen to live in Thailand.[/li][li] Many alleged suicides or accidents are actually … suicides or accidents![/li][li] In my experience, police are more rather than less likely to investigate crimes against Westerners, though they do avoid publicizing such crimes.[/li][li] Without denying that there is a strong Thai criminal element, much crime committed against foreigners in Bangkok or Pattaya is committed by foreigners.[/li][li] One’s risk from crime depends on caution and life style. I would feel much safer in the dark streets of Bangkok or Pattaya than in much of urban America.[/li][/ul]
I’m surprised to hear an accusation of price-gouging against KFC and Subway! An example I would have mentioned would be the two-tier pricing at Pattaya’s Ripley’s Believe it or Not! I’ve not been to Pattaya for several years but Ripley’s used to charge foreigners 3 times the Thai price or some such. I was informed Ripley’s was foreign-owned, but don’t have a cite for that.
You were vague in what you claim to be American owned businesses that gouge tourists, so I suggested, that maybe you were claiming American chains like Kfc or Subway. I do not think either of those gouge tourists.
Ripleys might be one example, but since you put “American owned businesses” in bold, you make it sound as though there are many that are guilty of gouging tourists.
So, how about this, you are the one making the claim, how about examples of American owned businesses that are gouging tourists ?
I doubt there are many, if any.
Also, why is it so very common that to defend one country, it seems so necessary to bring America into the discussion ?
Why can’t one country ever be defended without it almost always being compared to America ? Why can’t the defense of a country stand on its own ?
You also make it sound as if a large percentage of crime is tourist against tourist, and that is just not true.
Sure, many of the drunken fights are tourist against tourist, but I think you must admit that the vast majority of crimes against tourists are committed by Thais.
Then those very crimes are covered up and denied by the Thai government.
Sure the police may investigate crimes, if you pay them out of your own pocket !
The Thais do not trust the corrupt Thai police. Why should the tourists trust them ? How many tourist are victims of crimes, and then the police side with the Thai criminal against the tourist victim because the police want a share of the stolen money ?
How many of those “suicides and accidents” are ever thoroughly investigated , if at all ?
Anyway, I am going to step away from this thread and follow what is happening with the Thai demonstrators.
The cynic in me says that the Thais will just do something that will further enforce my negative impression of them, but the humanitarian in me hopes that the problem ends in a productive and peaceful conclusion.
I haven’t been following the Thai issues much at all; my only vague impression was that two sides were each accusing each other of being corrupt and not having the support of the people.