I don’t disagree with this at all. Including the part where it can be impossible to prove that any single incident results from racism Which means I have absolutely no problem in agreeing that generally lower appraisals for houses being sold by black people, or in black neighborhoods are related to racism - but I do not agree that the lower appraisal is “pretty good evidence” that the first appraiser is racist. He might be racist , he might be incompetent, it might be that all the other appraisers are overvaluing the houses ( yes, that does happen). It’s impossible to tell from a single example - but that doesn’t always stop people.
According to the website below, 8% of white children in foster care are adopted by black or interracial families and 2% of adoptions are of black parents adopting white kids.
So I wouldn’t call “black on white” adoptions rare or vanishingly rare. They just aren’t as common as “white on black” adoptions. FWIW, black families are more likely adopt in general than white families are.
Wrong link above - should be The Hidden Reason Why House Prices Are Too High (And Income Growth Is Too Low) — Appraisal Creep
I think it’s the obvious wealth disparity between black (and hispanic/native American) and white citizens that most clearly shows this. All the other things (such as the incarceration rates mentioned earlier) stem from this, IMHO anyway and FWIW.
It wasn’t a small difference, it was 40%. The first appraiser appraised it at less than the value of any other house in the neighborhood.
The only other explanation is that this appraiser was horrendous at his job, and had no business having anything to do with valuating houses. I suppose that is possible, and a good fig leaf to accept if you want to pretend that racism is not a systemic and real problem.
Might be, might be, might be, maybe maybe maybe.
Lot of caveats to excuse what, if left alone and unchallenged, would have meant a very real difference to a family’s finances and credit, impacting the future of their children.
Can you prove it was racism? No. But is it evidence of racism, yes.
Evidence is not proof, that does seem to be something that people have trouble distinguishing from time to time. Evidence is evidence.
And this is absolutely evidence that a black family was being treated different than a white family would.
Proof of racism? No. Evidence? Yes.
Pretty simple, IMHO.
You can almost never prove racism in any individual case unless an appraiser says, “Well, since you are black, you are only going to get 330k for this house.”
And since you cannot ever prove individual instances of racism without blatant admission, then racism must just not exist.
Mine wasn’t a small difference either, I didn’t bother to run percentages but I had one that was $120,000 different from another. (I’m a white guy)
Again, this doesn’t prove or even point to racism, except for the folks who want to blame it on race.
There may indeed be racism regarding appraisals, but you can’t use this one as proof.
Evidence, used together provides proof. Evidence without proof means nothing. So as far as proof no, evidence yes. Ok, but not evidence of racism unless it leads to proof.
This is the entirety of the racism debate that is raging today. We can’t prove it was racism but we are going to blame it on race anyway because that is what we think.
In some instances, race is likely the issue, in a lot of others there are all kinds of other factors at play.
Jacob Blake, racism or armed felon getting shot?
If somebody’s got both diabetes and a broken leg, the treatment’s different for each of those problems.
However, telling that person that walking more will help get their blood sugar down and discourage peripheral neuropathy, while refusing to treat the broken leg, is very much not helpful.
I appreciate what you are saying. If I hadn’t yet succeeded in conveying my position, I was somewhat taken aback at my ineffectiveness in supporting a position I held pretty strongly.
Just to fill things out a bit, I’m a white, middle class male, pushing 60. Grew up in an area/time when Brazil nuts were N-toes, a majority of mothers did not work outside of the home, etc. I’ve long been aware of the privileges I enjoyed as a white male, and have long supported affirmative action in various forms. In recent years, I’ve been even more critical of any personal implicit biases WRT race, sexual orientation, etc. I admit I’m far from the most “woke” person around, but I certainly felt secure in my KNOWLEDGE that institutional racism against blacks exists. When it came time to support my convictions, tho, I was disappointed at my success.
The discussion here has been very helpful - especially THIS concept:
I truly appreciate the Dope providing a forum where such topics can be discussed in an intelligent and respectful manner.
I never said that this proves racism. I only said that it is evidence towards that conclusion. there can be counter evidence. Like, if this guy consistently under appraises houses, or if the neighborhood is overvalued and this is the only guy that gives an appropriate value. Those would be evidence against it being a racially biased assessment.
Do you have that evidence to provide? You get proof by comparing different pieces of evidence, and determining the most likely reason to explain the evidence. Right now, we have the evidence that this appraiser appraised this house at far below the value of any other home in the neighborhood, and we have evidence that an appraiser who would have no reason for bias appraised it well within the price range.
I’m not even sure how to parse this into a semblance of meaning.
Nor this.
Are you saying that unless it results in a guilty verdict, information presented at a trial is not evidence?
No, just the opposite. We should not assume that such things do not come from a place of racism because that is what makes us more comfortable.
Would you like to provide proof of the latter?
[quote=“k9bfriender, post:66, topic:919067”]
And since you cannot ever prove individual instances of racism without blatant admission, then racism must just not exist.
[/quote] That is almost exactly the opposite of what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that the fact that racism does exist doesn’t prove that any individual instance is racism.
Are you realizing what you are writing basically comes down to you have a belief, prove you wrong?
Evidence that leads to nothing but speculation is not, in fact, evidence. Evidence leads to a conclusion, a conclusion that you are starting with.
Basically the onus of the proof lies with the accuser.
Right, and I’m not disagreeing with that. I specifically have said that this is not proof of racism, only evidence.
But, since it is nearly impossible to prove that any individual instance is racism, then it is easy for some to dismiss racism entirely, as they demand things like proof of individual acts of racism, and refuse to accept evidence of many racially disparate actions as leading towards any viable conclusion.
That is not what I am writing, not at all. I did not say I had any belief, and I did not ask you to prove me wrong.
It is not speculation that the evidence leads you to, it is a preponderance of evidence that it creates.
And that is exactly why systemic racism is allowed to fester in our country. Every instance of it must be proven individually by the individual who has experienced it to a standard of proof that meets arbitrary and always changing criteria.
Don’t understand the confusion - or whether it is sincere. There can be all manner of things that are repeatable, reliable, and commonly accepted as true, which are well-supported by evidence which falls short of certain standards of “proof”. But if more and better evidence supports one proposition, then a contrary position supported by less evidence is generally less likely.
Looks like I fortuitously used the word “evidence” rather than “proof” in my thread title! 
So if you think the “evidence” cited as supporting the existence of racism is lacking, then by all means, clearly express the problems with that evidence, or offer equally compelling evidence supporting a different interpretation.
Then explain how the evidence that you have to offer points towards racism. I can take the same evidence and say it points towards something else.
That usually means you are striving to prove something that you believe to be true but may be the result of numerous different factors.
Personally I believe that classism exists in a lot of the things that people point to as racist.
I have, and the only counter you have given was that the first appraiser was incompetent.
No, that means that I am seeing evidence of something, and trying to determine if that is a systemic problem, or an isolated incident.
That would explain many disparate acts of society and policing towards different neighborhoods, but would not explain why this would happen to an upper middle class family in an upper middle class neighborhood.
Classism certainly exists. I’ve been poor, and many of my social group are impoverished, most of them are white. I can vouch absolutely that those with less wealth are treated more poorly than those with more.
That makes the intersectionality of being both poor and a minority all the worse.
I’m sorry, but I haven’t been reading your posts as clearly as I might have. Exactly what explanation(s) do you suggest the which of the various evidence supports other than racism? Simply offering the possibility of “something else” is not terribly persuasive.
The problem isn’t that racism exists, it does.
The problem is that too many people point to anything and everything as proof to it and that is misplaced and does not do justice to those who are affected by the actual racism.
My thoughts in this thread revolved around Monstro’s proof regarding the appraisal. The initial response i heard was that it was “proof” , that you requested, to argue with your friend.
All I have said, and will likely continue to say is that all this “proof” is likely a condition of the bias you look through the “evidence” with.
Also, please don’t do this here. There is a pit thread where I am accused of trolling (or being a troll), feel free to do it there.
The alternate evidence is simple, the new appraiser was better suited to the area. Numerous people have stated that appraisals come in varying , all the time. Mine did as well ($120,000 different)