What do you do with a compulsively lying sibling?

She probably honestly thinks, if she is anything like me, that they are beneath her.

If (and I keep saying this) her situation is like mine, then there is no success that is really acceptable, deep down inside, unless it is above and beyond what a “mere mortal” would have done.

Even after having found a reason to try, anything less than a perfect score on something I felt I should be perfect on was aggravating. The closer I was to perfect, the farther away I was. I got a 96 on my seminal piece of scholarship, and I was really not happy I got docked four points. I still haven’t looked much at the paper. Why bother? The encouraging comments tell me what I already knew, which doesn’t help me, and any marks off will just remind me of how I didn’t do what I could have done.

Success, once you have tasted it without trying, is assumed. Greatness, once you can manage it without trying, becomes an increasingly watered-down sensation. You want to do more with less, and when you get to the point of actually having to try, let alone for something as mundane as a job or class, or just talking to someone, … on one level, that you should even bother getting dressed for the event is insulting.

This can very quickly develop a hell of an attitude in the right (wrong) person.

I went eight years in grade/middle school and four years in high school without ever really trying very hard. My parents taught me most of the material beforehand, so I didn’t have much to learn out of books, but I also never had to real academic challenge until I was 16. Science was very easy, languages were second nature (I took two to AP level, and I still think I would have taken a third there if I’d just cared), and I could have taught two of my math classes.

Then came Calculus. I didn’t see it in advance as I had with other subjects. I had to try. I had a reason to: I wanted my teacher to be proud of me.

But then I graduated, and I lost that reason. And going to a second-tier school and taking very, very boring classes didn’t help much in the reason department.

So when it came time to get a health form signed – one form, and a form I could have taken care of in a phone call, a bus ride, a weekend – I didn’t get it done until it was thoroughly late. So I got stuck with shit classes again, and I didn’t go to class for two months.

Lied through my teeth all semester to my parents. Failed every class, had to take summer school.

Whereupon I enrolled in all junior-level classes and pulled off a 3.6 (out of 4, not 100) or something. My mother was beside herself.

I had been challenged. And the challenge was not beneath me. It was fun. I cared about the topics. In short, I had a reason for a semester.

I’ve had that academic pattern once since. I was enrolled in classes that were either at least my equals or well beneath me. I didn’t do as much as I needed in the hard classes, and I did the bare minimum (or less) in the ones I felt I was taking just for the credits, not the information.

I passed one.

And then I got my reason. And I pulled my GPA up .8 of a point in a year. I took the hardest classes I could get my hands on, and I bulldozed through them.

I say this not to impress but to give you an idea of how important the reason is.

If your sister is anything like me, get her a permanent reason to do what she should and you’ll see inspiration you only hoped was there.

Again, if she’s anything like me (and I frankly hope she isn’t, as I know of no professional therapy that would have worked), small victories are assumed. To get back to the point where you want to succeed and want to work hard, you have to either find a new reason or hit rock bottom.

And it’s a lot lower than you think it is. I was homeless myself for a few months, going between my then-girlfriend and some sympathetic friends. That lack of personal space didn’t tell me that my approach was wrong; it dented, but by no means scarred, my view that the college I was attending should just give me a diploma for knowing everything already.

Meaning no disrespect, I’d be shocked as hell if she told you all or even most of what’s wrong. She might tell someone she has no deep investment in, but tell someone who actually matters to her? As if. That would be an admission that her grand plan (which is not a plan but an attitude about things) isn’t working.

And then she would have to go out and do something she not only won’t do but is afraid to do: try, with the possibility of now-meaningful failure.

See, once someone like me has admitted a problem, and it’s become an issue where you might fail with someone important knowing you tried, failure is so far from being an option that if you do fail, you shut yourself off from the world in ways that world didn’t know existed.
She should be able to handle everything. This is still her approach. Talking about her problems is an admission that she can’t do it all alone. Talking to someone she chooses, or who is otherwise not a therapist/counselor, doesn’t mean she can’t do it all alone, just that she’s impressing someone with how deep she’s in. It’s viewed as an accomplishment.
If you can find her a challenge that is within her means to solve, but that will require nontrivial work, and if you (or someone else) can keep her on that path, you have hope. But she’s got to think she can do it, and she’s got to think (though you can’t ever say) you don’t think she can do it. Only in those circumstances, from my experience, is the challenge accepted. The department chair at my last college didn’t think, as far as I can tell, that I’d actually be able to handle a senior-level course load after getting a C in second-semester English. Then I took those classes, chose deliberately difficult research projects (where’s the fun in writing about something easy?) and achieved my primary personal goal: teaching my professors something about their field that they maybe didn’t know.

It’s about finding work you feel is worth your attention. And even with my reason (wife), I still struggle with work I feel is frankly beneath me. So I do stuff on the side that I feel is worth my attention (or that is absolutely not worth it but fun).

wfudan, if you think it’d help, I’d be happy to answer any specific questions you have via e-mail (this side of my ain’t very pretty, and I ain’t hugely fond of letting people see it) and/or talk to your sister there. I can identify with thinking stuff is beneath you, and I also know what to say (“You’re right. It is. Can you think of someone or something more important than you to do it for?”) and what not to say (anything attempted as a trump card or an order).

This bears repeating.

I don’t know what kind of feedback she’s been getting from your family and other sources. No positive feedback ever (what I got from my parents) is as bad as “you’re so smart!” any time the 12yo not-so-much-a-child-anymore buttons his shirt on straight.

Pointing out both her mistakes and her successes seems like an important part of a strategy to me.

The courses where I got the higher grades in HS were those where the teacher gave us “emotional” feedback (“good job” or “I know you can do better”) as well as numbers on a scorecard, because I wasn’t getting that kind of emotional info at home. For other classes, well, I was going to get yelled at whether I got a 5 (Pass with the Fail breathing at my ass) or a 9.9 (Honors, but it’s not a 10) - when I got a 10, it was deemed acceptable but the course got reclassified as “must be easy, since you got a decent grade for once” :smack: - getting yelled at for a 5 was something I could at least understand. Again, I have no idea what kind of feedback has your sister been getting, this is just my own example.

Lying is not a symptom of depression. She does sound mentally disturbed though. Sometimes there is just nothing that you can do. I don’t know if that is the case here. I just don’t know what to suggest unless she becomes harmful to others.

My sister lies. I used to think that she knew that she was lying. Now I think that she believes in the fantasy and has herself fooled. She told someone once that my father was a Latin scholar. It was a man that went to school with my father and knew him all of his life probably as well as anyone else. She knew that. He wasn’t a Latin scholar. I’m not sure that he knew more than a few Latin words at best. He couldn’t translate.

I tried to confront her with her confusion about such things and about how she wouldn’t let anyone disagree with her. She went bullistic and could not be reasoned with. But I can understand. We both grew up with the same mother. She developed one mental illness and I another.

Then I had a really neat friend – great personality – who just lied for the fun of it. She got caught big time one day and that was the end of it. She told me she drove by my house. I asked her if she noticed anything different. She didn’t. There was major construction going on to the face of my house. If you missed that, you couldn’t miss the big old Port-o-Potty. Bye, Kim. I didn’t buy into the Elton John, Vince Gill, Stephanie what’s-her-face, or wolf ownership stories anyway. But it was fun watching you spin them. “You can count on it.”

True, one does not generally lie simply because one is depressed. It’s not like anyone thinks “Oh, life is so awful! I’ll just tell everyone I met the Pope yesterday.”

But attempts to satisfy the requests of well meaning relatives and friends could well lead to lies, if the depressed person realises that those folk they love will be upset and disappointed if their depression prevents them from doing so. If your choice is between dealing with an employer or dealing with relatives who are hassling you to do what they think would best help, it’s very possible a depressed person will just lie to everyone. Whatever the hell they think will get others to leave them alone. Believe me, one very common desire is to be left alone. It can become an obsession, and if lying best facilitates it, so be it.

So I don’t know if you’d call lying a “symptom” or a “consequence” of depression, but it happens a lot and it is related.

I appreciate all of the responses. I think that several of you have given me plausible causes, but it seems to be one of those “we won’t know exactly what’s wrong until it’s right” kind of things.

I’m a little hesitant to say that her case is too closely related to iampunha’s. She is far from dumb, but she’s no genius either. It seems to me that for her to intentionally screw up college and her subsequent jobs because she thought they were beneath her would require a very strange mix of a superiority complex and strong sense of inadequacy.

I’m beginning to think that she simply screwed up at college, then the reaction she got from family sparked the feeling of inadequacy, which in turn led to the rest of her failures I have described.

Basically, I’m just going to keep trying a mix of supportive and concerned to see what work. Hopefully something is effective.

If we can solve this, we ought to forward the thread to the authorities in Florida who are still looking for Caylee Anthony. Her mom is going for the Guiness record for the biggest number and quality of high-profile lies while under national scrutiny. Here’s the latest on that, where the mom has 10 new charges being filed against her:

I had a roommate in college who lied about everything. He’d lie about trivial stuff and big stuff. Gee, how did I forget to strangle him in his sleep?

A big component in his case was putting one over on me. Like “Ha ha, you’re stupid to believe that!” Even with trivial shit, like what time we were going down to the caf to eat (How stupid I was to believe his claim that he wanted to eat at 5:00! I should have suspected he really wanted to eat at 5:30!) So for him at least, it seemed to be about control.

He had a one word rationalization for it, come to think of it: “Bullshitting.” If he told a totally heinous lie and someone called him on it, he’d say he was just “bullshitting.”

He told me his parents really pushed him toward getting a degree (his father was superintendent of schools in his home town). They discouraged him from going out for sports, playing his guitar, and other things that they thought were not geared toward academics. And they overtly favored his older brother.

When my folks came for a visit, first time that semester, they took me to breakfast and we invited him along. Later, once I really knew him, I told them on the phone, “I’m glad you’re coming to visit! My asshole roommate will NOT be accompanying us!”

I met his folks under similar circumstances once. Cold people, the sort who say hello reluctantly because…well, I don’t know. His sister actually lived in the same town and I met her a couple times. She seemed totally normal, warm and friendly, and she borrowed a song book of mine to copy. She returned it very promptly and was thankful etc. She must have been adopted.

A couple of decades later, the parental favortism and pushy attitude are the best guess I have: anything and everything he ever said could have been a lie. In a way, his lying seemed to be like a cry for help. My sister once had a beagle and she said that if they don’t get “good attention” (pet them, play with them, great), they’ll demand bad (beat them because they’re keeping the whole fam awake at 2:00 AM). Your beagle may vary. But sometimes he seemed like that, maybe hoping to hurt people so that by their reaction, he’d know they cared. Just don’t ignore him, by god!

He had a real narcissistic streak, btw. Our room had a sink and mirror, and sometimes I’d catch him “posing” in front of it, practicing his smile and posturing. Creepy shit. Now I think it’s probably because he had deep doubts. His family didn’t make him feel good about himself (on the contrary), so his psyche stepped in to fill that role.

I think he knew, deep down, that he wasn’t all that smart so he cultivated this outward facade to get attention. You’d probably think he was a fun guy if you met him at a party. But hang around him for a few days and you’ll start catching the lies.

How would you fix him? I don’t know if an intervention would work; maybe he gave up on getting his family’s love and the prospect of losing them might not matter. In any case, IMO massive amounts of therapy were indicated.

I am very similar to iampunha, actually, though not to that extent. I have had jobs where the work was boring and repetitive and I just stopped doing it. I actually threw the work away and ignored it and eventually quit and found something else because it was beneath me. It was a vicious cycle where if I had just buckled down and done it (and had I put in any effort they would have thought I was amazing because of how fast and efficient I am generally) I would have been promoted to things that were better suited for me and the challenge I needed would have been there, but without the challenge I couldn’t be bothered to put in the effort, etc.

If you think that this might be her problem perhaps you could help her find a really challenging class to take or volunteer opportunity to counterbalance her boring work life. IME it is easier to deal with one part of your life being dull and boring if you have something challenging to keep you occupied at other times.

I agree that lying isn’t a symptom of depression, but I think bouncing from job to unsatisfying job IS a symptom of it. She might be looking to a job to relieve the depression and when it doesn’t (because if it’s a chemical issue, it CAN’T), she then feels like a failure and lies to make herself or others feel better. She may actually find something she likes if she gets the depression under control.

Not sure what you could do. The only compulsive liar I knew was a drug addict, and he wouldn’t just lie to get drugs/money for drugs. He would do things like dial the phone but hang up and talk for 20 seconds or so “leaving a message with his friend”. He would lie about things he knew I would find out easily about, or things he’d have no reason to lie for.

“Didn’t you hear me leave a message on Pete’s phone?”
Nope, I heard you talk into a phone, I have no idea whether or not the number you dialed was Pete, or if the answering machine even picked up.

“I did [thing he was supposed to do that day] today”
Yes, it’s true I heard you say you did that.

I gave up on him. I’m not saying you should give up on your sister, but as others here have said so much better than I have, she"ll have to figure it out on her own.

In order to commit to something, I have to care. In order for me to care, it has to matter in some fundamental way to myself. Otherwise, I will just dismiss it from my attention. This works if it’s something that hurts you, because if I care (and you matter to me) about you, then I will try to help. I care in a vague general sense about tragedies that happen etc, but if you want me to be 100% dedicated to X, it had better matter to me.

Not sure where this fits in with the lying, but as I read** iampunha’s** post, I found myself nodding. Math was never made relevant to ME–not beyond you’ll need to balance your checkbook someday. Well, I can do that. So, what was the purpose of HS trig for me? Same with chemistry and other courses. If I could coast, I did. I barely broke a sweat through grad school. A library science degree is hardly the toughest graduate level program out there, but I got into the #1 school in the country and coasted my way through as soon as I found out that the bare minimum got me the same grades that working hard did.

I don’t know what this is called–underachievement or self sabotage or immaturity or what, but I have it, too. Perhaps the OP’s sister does as well. You (generic you) have to give me something hard in order to engage me at all. Life rarely hands me hard stuff and I’m too lazy to make my own. (that said, I think this exists on a spectrum–I’ve never been fired or lost my job for example and I didn’t drop out of school).