What do you think of interracial couples?

[brazil84]

@HazelNutCoffee

I would be sad to see anything unique disappear, but as I’ve stated before, I don’t see the point of preserving these things if it means fostering a close-minded attitude towards people that are not of your culture.

Well that’s a different issue. But I would guess that there are probably situations where even you would favor some kind of closed-minded approach.

Anyway, I don’t see how interracial marriages are a threat to cultures in general. I don’t deny that cultural imperialism exists, and countries like Ireland are struggling to preserve parts of their culture (in particular, their language) that are in danger of disappearing because they have been subsumed by a more dominant culture. But that has nothing to do with people marrying outside of their own race.

Do you have a specific example of a culture that was wiped out or is in danger of being wiped out as a result of their members marrying people of other races?

Wikipedia has this to say about the Kaifeng Jews:

Despite their isolation from the rest of the Jewish diaspora, the Jews of Kaifeng preserved Jewish traditions and customs for many centuries. In the seventeenth century, assimilation began to erode these traditions. The rate of intermarriage between Jews and other ethnic groups, such as the Han Chinese, and the Hui and Manchu minorities in China, increased. The destruction of the synagogue in the 1860s led to the community’s demise.[14] However, J.L. Liebermann, the first Western Jew to visit Kaifeng in 1867, noted that “they still had a burial ground of their own”. In 1868 it was reported that their liturgy consisted only of pieces from the Bible.[15] S.M. Perlmann, the Shanghai businessman and scholar, wrote in 1912 that "they bury their dead in coffins, but of a different shape than those of the Chinese are made, and do not attire the dead in secular clothes as the Chinese do, but in linen

[brazil84]

@Belowjob2.0

Mixing and assimilating are good.

That’s your value judgment. A lot of people would prefer that their own group not get mixed and assimilated out of existence.

[Isamu]

You belong to your culture, you don’t own it. And you don’t get a say in whether it lives or dies. That’s just a fact, Jack.

Stay out of other people’s business is my advice. Live your own life and let others live theirs.

[HazelNutCoffee]

@brazil84

Wikipedia has this to say about the Kaifeng Jews:

The article doesn’t say that the “Kaifeng Jews” were a unique culture. They were just some Jews living in China. They didn’t have their own language or their own customs that were unique to them. While the community may have been assimilated, Jewish culture is still alive and well in many parts of the world.

[brazil84]

@HazelNutCoffee

The article doesn’t say that the “Kaifeng Jews” were a unique culture.

Well how do you define a “culture” so I can find you a better example?

Also, are you disputing that there have been cultures which were assimilated out of existence by intermarriage?

[brazil84]

@Isamu

You belong to your culture, you don’t own it. And you don’t get a say in whether it lives or dies.

As a practical matter, that’s not so. If enough people decide to leave a particular culture, it’s done. If enough people decide to stick with it, it will live on.

[brazil84]

Just found this on the UNESCO web site:

The Khang ethnic minority, living in several provinces of Northwest Vietnam, is officially recognized by the government as one of the country’s most endangered cultures. The approximately four thousand members of the group do not have a written version of their language, and intermarriage with other ethnic communities has imperiled its transmission to the younger generation–despite the fact that many Khang are eager to preserve their mother tongue. This project was undertaken to safeguard Khang language and culture by recording traditional elements like folk songs, developing an orthography using the Latin alphabet, preparing materials for teaching the language in the community and training local speakers to conduct classes.

Members of Khang communities assisted Vietnamese experts from the Vietnamese Association of Folklorists in compiling word lists and grammars, which were used to create bilingual photo books and other instructional materials. These books were put to work in language classes offered intially to more than fifty Khang people, in conjunction with the newly created rules of transcription and recordings of fluent Khang speakers. The community is already working to expand and improve this language education to revitalize the use of their mother tongue, an important step in preserving their cultural heritage.

[Peremensoe]

@brazil84

FWIW I disapprove of interracial couples. I see value in having a diversity of races and ethnic groups and interracial mating undermines that value.

Where do you think diversity comes from?

[Peremensoe]

@Belowjob2.0

If you’re serious about preserving traditional cultures, ethnicities, languages, the US is the wrong place for you.

Almost nobody in Wisconsin speaks German anymore, and there are no longer German newspapers with large circulation as there were before the wars. And German-Americans routinely intermarry with Irish and Poles and Italians. These are all good things for America. Holding yourself apart from the mainstream is bad. Mixing and assimilating are good. It’s a big part of what makes us who we are.

Well, now wait a minute. Mixing is good, but cherishing distinctions and diversity is good too. Both dynamics are key to America, IMO.

[HazelNutCoffee]

@brazil84

Well how do you define a “culture” so I can find you a better example?

Also, are you disputing that there have been cultures which were assimilated out of existence by intermarriage?

I don’t think that intermarriage is ever the sole factor in a culture that gets assimilated. The Khang are a tiny community. Yes, I think it’s important that they preserve their language. So do you think that forbidding or even frowning upon interracial marriage is going to help their situation?

[brazil84]

@Peremensoe

Where do you think diversity comes from?

From groups being separated in some way. Why do you ask?

[brazil84]

@HazelNutCoffee

I don’t think that intermarriage is ever the sole factor in a culture that gets assimilated.

You may very well be right. So what?

The Khang are a tiny community. Yes, I think it’s important that they preserve their language. So do you think that forbidding or even frowning upon interracial marriage is going to help their situation?

Yes of course. Although I suppose that in Vietnam one would call it inter-ethnic or inter-cultural marriage.

Anyway, please answer a question so that I can understand your position:

Are you disputing that there have been cultures which were assimilated out of existence [in significant part] by intermarriage?

[An_Gadai]

@HazelNutCoffee

Anyway, I don’t see how interracial marriages are a threat to cultures in general. I don’t deny that cultural imperialism exists, and countries like Ireland are struggling to preserve parts of their culture (in particular, their language) that are in danger of disappearing because they have been subsumed by a more dominant culture. But that has nothing to do with people marrying outside of their own race.

And indeed, lots of people come to this country and see something about its culture worth adopting, adapting and using so you have a situation where it isn’t uncommon to meet Irish speakers who weren’t born in Ireland. This can only be a good thing vis-a-vis the continued use of the language/culture in the future.

[An_Gadai]

@Belowjob2.0

Iraq, Afghanistan, India, and Northern Ireland, to name but four, are nightmares of multiculturalism, where intermarriage between groups is largely forbidden. What’s routine in America, inter ethnic dating, in these countries is cause for ostracism and even death.

Northern Ireland is far from a perfect society, and prejudice against couples who cross sectarian or racial lines does exist, but you really, really, exaggerate the reality of the situation in my humble opinion.

[Peremensoe]

@brazil84

@Peremensoe

Where do you think diversity comes from?

From groups being separated in some way. Why do you ask?

That’s one way to create diversity, but its effect is vastly multiplied when you start mixing those groups back together. For example, there are a hundred different ethnocultural groups in the New World that are derived from various combinations of European, African, and Native ancestry, in various places.

[brazil84]

@Peremensoe

That’s one way to create diversity, but its effect is vastly multiplied when you start mixing those groups back together. For example, there are a hundred different ethnocultural groups in the New World that are derived from various combinations of European, African, and Native ancestry, in various places.

I would say it depends on how you measure “diversity.”

For example, consider the hypothetical situation where Polar Bears are assimilated out of existence through inter-breeding with Brown Bears. Now consider the situation a few generations before Polar Bears are completely assimilated and disappear. At that time, there will be a small number of Polar Bears; a large number of Brown Bears; and a medium number of mixed Bears. In your view, does that situation have more “diversity” than a situation where Brown Bears and Polar Bears are distinct, separate groups?

[Peremensoe]

Brown and polar bears are distinct groups in your scenario, so obviously the answer has to be yes.

Why should the polar bears “disappear,” though? Why should there not become a bear spectrum of many intermediate shades and forms?

[brazil84]

@Peremensoe

Brown and polar bears are distinct groups in your scenario, so obviously the answer has to be yes.

Ok, I prefer the diversity from distinct separate groups – not the diversity which is created as a group gets assimilated out of existence.

Why should the polar bears “disappear,” though? Why should there not become a bear spectrum of many intermediate shades and forms?

Well it depends what you mean by “disappear.”

Do you feel that Neanderthals have disappeared? I mean, people of European descent have something like 5% Neanderthal genes. Probably some Europeans have a bit more than that. And of course many people in the world have little or no Neanderthal genes.

So there is kind of a Neanderthal spectrum. And yet I think most people would agree that the Neanderthals have disappeared by any reasonable definition of the word “disappear.”

[Noone_Special]

@brazil84

And yet I think most people would agree that the Neanderthals have disappeared by any reasonable definition of the word “disappear.”

So has T-Rex. And your point is…?

[Peremensoe]

It wasn’t interbreeding with modern humans that disappeared them. They were probably on the way out in any case. We might have helped that along by violence and competition.

If anything, interbreeding kept a few Neanderthal genes extant in some of us. Maybe it contributes to the diversity of modern humans, as the ‘polar bear’ genes would make for a more diverse population of ‘brown bears.’

In any case, yeah, it’s hard to see your point there.