In what way did the carving up of the Ottoman Empire spawn the Arab Israeli Conflict? Israel didn’t exist until almost 30 years later.
The Arab Riots, the Hebron massacre, the Safed Pogrom (etc) were most certainly terrorism and they pre-date the creation of the state of Israel. Your focus on Israel as a proximate cause is myopic.
Because they didn’t.
In what way does knocking over domino number one cause the falling of domino number 256? Heck, #256 wasn’t even set down on the table top when #1 was knocked over…
The breakup of the Ottoman Empire led to lots of weird and nasty stuff still affecting us today. It led to the lack of a Kurdish homeland; it led to the Armenian genocide; it led to the weird borders of Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon. The creation of the British Mandate over Palestine was one of the biggies. The Nazi Holocaust also had an effect. History is weird this way.
Because in large part, as you’ve been told in the past, the Ottoman Land Codes prohibited private ownership of much of the land, as well as group-registration, and required tenants to essentially be renter-farmers, tending the land in order to keep it viable but virtually never obtaining actual ownership of the State Land or Waste Land. As such, there was significant resentment among much of the Arab populace when proto-nationalistic movements, like the Palestinians’, were subsumed by more powerful regional and/or transregional power brokering and there was significant resentment of the immigrant Jewish populace who often purchased, directly or indirectly, Mulk land which was able to be privately owned and traded.
The systems in place at the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire are the reason we have a Hashemite dynasty in power in Jordan (nee Transjordan). Jordan, in turn, not only followed the Ottoman Land Codes but also later went on to prevent the Palestinians from achieving sovereignty in the West Bank and Jerusalem. In the process, Transjordan ate up the vast majority of land which was set aside as Mandate Palestine. In this case, the imposition of the Hashemites upon the region was accomplished with British backing.
This object-lesson isn’t quintessentially different from much of what went on during the same period of reorganization. The powers which carved up the carcass of the Ottoman Empire often gave little more than lip service to regional ethnic borders or desires for self determination. This aggravated more than a few folks.
I don’t mind saying that I specifically have a problem with Israeli leaders interjecting opinions into the political process of other nations. Right-wing war-mongers should only be allowed to pollute the ears of their own people.
Didn’t the Armenian genocide precede the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and when did Kurds ever have a homeland?
Did you even bother checking out BG’s quote before responding?
He wasn’t lecturing me on what constituted Apartheid, but Mr. Dibble, who is a black man from South Africa.
Damuri already earlier declared that the far, far bloodier massacres and ethnic cleansing of Muslims at the hands of Christians in Spain and similar massacres and ethnic cleansing perpetrated by Muslims and Hindus against each other in the fighting over the Kashmir constituted terrorism.
If he doesn’t the butchering of tens of thousands of Muslims by Hindu irregulars to be terrorism, I doubt he’d consider the slaughter of 70 or so Jews at Hebron to be examples of terrorism either.
I was tempted to point to various acts committed by Christian Seperatist groups during the Ottoman period, but I assume he’d declare they weren’t examples of terrorism either.
I will confess to being surprised that he apparantly doesn’t consider the various actions committed by Lehi and The Irgun prio to the establishment of Israel to be examples of terrorism.
My word - haven’t the Jews suffered enough without this?
Regards,
Shodan
That’s not even the best part. Boxer’s clowning is some good comedy.
Because, obviously, what kind of a nut would claim that whether or not a nation goes to war and what course of action the UN and its Security Council members take has anything to do with politics?
Oh, really?
What a shame. It was an informative link.
Netanyahu is certainly meddling in U.S politics during in election. It’s kind of dirty, especially when you know the challenger, Mitt Romney, has basically declared war on Iran before he accepted the nomination. There should be no “red line” in relation to Iran. Economic sanctions are best way to accomplish deterrence, if Iran becomes nuclear while the economic sanctions are in place, then the sanctions should become permanent - no more no less. Here’s the puzzling thing: in addition to economically isolating Iran, we’re launching a convert cyberwar against them. So, with the economic sanctions, the cyberwarfare against Iranian nuclear computers, and the direct military aid, Israel asks for more? Fuck that. Do it yourself. I figure like this: if the United States can take over Japan with two nuclear bombs built in the 1940’s, Israel shouldn’t need more than half dozen of modern nuclear weapons to take over Iran. What’s the hold up?
Since Israel isn’t a part of the non-proliferation treaty, what they have to say on the topic of Iran’s nuclear ambition is irrelevant. Israel can change my position by joining the NPT, submit the same level of monitoring that Iran does, and/or provide a free and functional nuclear reactor to Iran. Otherwise, Israel ought to STFU.
- Honesty
I was thinking of the 1920’s genocide, and that the Ottoman Empire pretty much dissolved in 1918… But I’m open to having my time-line corrected.
That the Kurds never had a homeland was my point; the British pretty much drew a bunch of straight lines over the region, and said, “This is Iraq, this is Syria,” without taking into account groups like the Kurds.
Here, I’ll have to disagree with you (most often I agree with what you say.) I think Boxer had a decent point to make. Many of us believe that Netanyahu is sailing much too close to the winds of war, and isn’t properly considering the consequences of a unilateral attack.
(Something that I find intensely depressing in U.S. politics is how the American Left has largely given up support for Israel, whereas the American Right has made support for Israel such a core issue. I am a leftist…who supports Israel! There aren’t as many of us as there used to be.)
Oh, I grok. And that position, expressed rationally, wouldn’t have been comedic. It’s the fact that Boxer claimed that someone was injecting politics into a political discussion, that tickled my funny bone. Of course the appropriate economic, covert and military response(s) to Iran are political. It’s a question of the foreign policy of the United States. That’s politics. Objecting to that fact looks silly. Objecting to going to war, on the other hand, is not a laughable position.
“Don’t put politics into my politics”, however, is a bit more laughable.
You’ve also got more than a decade of posting time here. Can you show us any other posts, at all, where you hold forth a principled objection to international leaders commenting on political matters during other nations’ elections? Or is this, as another poster admitted, simply because you don’t like Israel’s current leadership and believe that the rules should be different for them?
Your claims that it’s somehow “dirty” for politicians to express opinions (coupled, naturally, with a claim that your opinions are correct and those who disagree with you are, naturally, incorrect) is nowhere near as persuasive as you seem to feel it is. Argument By Fiat is remarkably anemic. Although, to be fair, it is mildly more robust than Argument From Driveby Youtube Link.
Meanwhile, your idea that nations which aren’t signatories to the NPT have no cause to object to Iran nuking up is, to put it mildly, idiosyncratic and willfully ignorant of the geopolitical considerations in the Middle East. There has been a regional push to develop nuclear technology because Iran is at odds with many nations in the region, not because there’s some sort of reverence for the NPT.
I rather like this quote better:
YMMV
Making inroads.
It’s refreshing to read opinions that differ from the usual “Israel can do no wrong” that one normally finds in threads of this kind. Specially so with such a delicate issue at stake.
Derision and mocking hardly an argument make. But when there’s nothing else that can be said…well, many a time silence does speak louder than words.
In any event, I’ve taken the time to transcribe just one of the handful of great points Joe Klein makes in the above ridiculed link-to-video. To wit:
Agreed.
I guess it’d be interesting if she was posting here. She’s not. And yet again, you’re not posting your own words and still not making any argument. You could start any time now, or you could just repost other people’s ideas some more.
It is a serious problem when you begin seeing things that don’t exist.
Of course, if one were to call you on the fact that you’re yet again trotting out an “Israel can do no wrong” position that you’ve invented and that’s never actually been espoused on the Dope, perhaps you’ll retreat to talking about how all you’re doing is using some of that good ol’ “hyperbole”. And you’re not using that “hyperbole” to distort what’s actually said and slime people who you don’t agree with but whose arguments you cannot possibly rebut. Nope, boy howdy nope! It’s just some “hyperbole”.
Just so we’re all clear, are you either Boxer or Klein? If not, what exactly would convince you to debate in GD?
As for Klein’s claims, he’s either ignorant of basic history or a liar. No other nation in the last 40 years has openly pushed for America to enter a war? Really? Kuwait ran a global PR campaign to get nations to wage war against Iraq during the Gulf War. Of course, perceptive folks will notice that Klein’s timeframe is rather carefully tailored to exclude events like, oh, World War II. But I guess if you’re cherrypicking facts to craft a narrative, it pays to leave out “Grrr, how dare those Yurupeens ask us to help them during WWII!” while cleaving to “Grrr, how dare those Israelis ask us to help them in dealing with Iran!” when one is arguing that the act of asking is somehow intrinsically wrong.
Of course, as you can’t provide a single cite for you caring about this issue before Israel was involved, maybe you can find one for Klein objecting to other foreign leaders talking about politics on the global stage. It should be very easy for you to find something from him condemning Kuwait forcefully for " trying to push us into war". I mean this is something that Klein honestly feels is a significant issue, and he’s not just got his panties in a twist because he really disagrees with the request in specific and is obfuscating with bullshit about how he’s upset about the situation in general. But because Klein really does hold that principled stance about the situation in general, you can and will provide us with that cite, too, seeing as how you’ve elected Klein to be your spokesman.
Or should we not expect that cite, either?
Has the U.S. State Department issued a response to Boxer’s communique? (ETA: you know, injecting politics into the interjection about politics, in our politics!)
(For my part, I won’t say exactly that I “object to war,” only that, like any rational person, I am as reluctant as possible regarding it. If the Israeli leadership feels it absolutely necessary to their survival to launch the attack…I will still be pro-Israel. I just hope that, if it happens, their reasoning is sound. I’m still mad at Colin Powell for – unintentionally? – deceiving us and the U.N. about the need to attack Iraq. I hope that the Israeli war-hawks are not engaged in similar deceit.)
Wikipedia describes Hebron massacre more a lynch mob that was exacting revenge or something that didnt happen than an act of terrorism. Apparently some arab families hid hundreds of Jews to protect them at great peril to themselves. The Hebron massacre along with the safer pogrom all occurred in August of 1929 as part of the Arab riots.
BUT it appears that there was some deep psychological shit going on that I can’t really grok that led to resentment and persecution of Jews. It appears that the creation of the state of Israel was more of a crystallizing event than a causative one. But it seems like it was still a precipitating event.
Fucking history we should kick its ass. Some people say that forgetting I story dooms us to repeat it. Well it looks like we repeat it anyway and history just reminds of who we are supposed to hate.
So they took it out n the Jews because they purchased land?
Just killing people (even civilians) is not terrorism. Throwing a bomb in a cafe or marketplace or a hotel named after King David are examples of terrorism.
Well, if Wikipedia says it…
Yes, it was terrorism. And we haven’t even touched on the Arab Revolt.
When it’s shown that what you think are facts are fictional, and your basic chronology is wrong, but your still keep to the same conclusion, it’s a good sign that you’re more than simply wrong. Especially since your initial argument was that the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire wasn’t the cause of regional trouble since you claimed there was a “30 year incubation period”. Of course, it was roughly a decade and a half between the creation of Israel and the creation of the PLO, and even then Black September was not only a prime concern but one that functionally had little to nothing to do with Jews, Israel or Zionism.
The King David Bombing was an attack on a military target, the British HQ, with warning provided.
So then how come you don’t consider the killing of Lord Moyne or the bombing of the King David Hotel to be examples of terrorism?
Perhaps you can explain your definition of terrorism and explain what would cause you to make such extraordinarily stupid claims about there being no terrorism in the Middle East prior to the creation of Israel and there being no terrorism related to the conflict over the Kashmir district.