Using deliberately charged language does do something…it has a negative effect. It puts people on the defensive. And, frankly, it’s not a tangible solution. It has no tangible effect to help people, it’s about scoring points and crafting the narrative.
I was here, watching during Trump’s campaign. Let me ask you a question here…when Trump used charged language slamming something, how did you feel about that? Make you more or less likely to help him out or go along with his narrative? I’m guessing it made you more likely to fight whatever he was babbling about.
This is why most Dems HAVEN’T jumped on this bandwagon. Because by focusing on this sort of thing instead of tangible actions it’s more about scoring points. Trump was and is ALL about scoring points and talking to the faithful. And, frankly, that’s what I’m seeing with this Concentration Camp thing. I note with no little irony that most Dems seem to be more in my camp on this one and less in the AOC and seeming 'doper line on this one.
…when Trump used “charged language slamming something” before the elections most dopers were shocked, upset, dismayed and appalled.
Yet Trump ended up President of the United States of America. The most powerful person on the planet. And there is a very good chance in 2020 Trump will get re-elected again.
It doesn’t matter that us dopers “didn’t want to go along with his narrative.” That wasn’t enough to keep him out of power. Tone policing isn’t a smart strategy. It certainly doesn’t guarantee a win at the next election.
And there is a qualitative difference between Donald Trump taking pot-shots at private citzens like Megan Rapinoe and calling the camps ‘concentration camps.’ The two aren’t even in the same ballpark. The same planet. Conflating the two is both disingenuous and insulting.
Its not about politics. Its about peoples lives. The conversation has shifted. Arguably both the Dems and the Republicans have shifted on this issue percisely because we haven’t been able to stop talking about it for the last week. That matters.
It IS about people’s lives…which is why doing something tangible is better than trying to craft the narrative. I’m not saying we shouldn’t talk about it. I’m certainly not saying we shouldn’t do something about it. But there is a huge difference between political moves to put together a vote to get $4 billion+ for funding and basically Tweeting about Concentration Camps with not only no solutions offered but no motions put forth to DO something. Sorry, but doing something is better than talking about it to spin the narrative. I’m not going to change on this, and it seems neither are most of you. The lesson you all seemed to have learned from Trump is that hot air and horseshit (i.e. crafting the narrative and playing to your base) is what’s important. Because it worked for him I suppose.
At any rate, I’m done being the target here. So many ridiculous attacks, and so many things making me say essentially the same thing over and over. Have fun with the rest of your discussion, I think I’ll call it a thread.
…changing the narrative is something that is tangible.
Characterizing AOC’s tweet as “basically Tweeting about Concentration Camps with not only no solutions offered but no motions put forth to DO something” is entirely your issue and is not a reflection on reality.
But…AOC is doing something? She is doing more than “just spinning the narrative.” She spend less than 140 characters to “spin the narrative.” Probably took less than a minute. That is a very effective use of time. One tweet to completely change the conversation. Thats efficent.
We haven’t learnt lessons from Trump.
We are learning lessons from history. We are learning lessons from the early days of the alt-right, the rise of things like goobergate, of how they used propaganda tactics and technology to attack women and marginalised peoples and how people fought back against those tactics.
You are in the middle of a propaganda war. The Trump administration doesn’t engage with the public. It disseminates propaganda. You don’t combat this by being passive, by ignoring it, by pretending that it isn’t happening.
This is a discussion forum and we are having a debate. We aren’t targeting you. You personally are a great person, an asset to these boards, you’ve been here for years and are a valuable contributor. I actually hate debating you because I think you are a cool guy. I’d very much prefer to **not **be debating you.
But I think you’ve got it wrong here. And I think you’ve got it so objectively wrong that I feel its important enough for me to speak out. I don’t think that there is anything wrong with that.
The point (which you continually seem to miss or avoid) is this:
People can call these concentration camps “concentration camps” AND ALSO, they can do something about it. IT’S NOT A BINARY SITUATION.
In fact, by calling these camps by their correct name, MORE is being done about it today. Because more people are now aware that children are being put into concentration camps in the USA.
And it’s too bad that some people are made to feel bad that they are supporting concentration camps. That’s very sad for them.
There are a many such options – give them a court date and send them on their way south of the border; give them a court date and send them on their way north of the border (with or without an ankle monitor); fund the courts sufficiently so they all can get a court date (and a lawyer) within a matter of days; or lots of things more creative people can come up with.
Goodbye, but let me absolutely clear here, because I don’t think you get it:
The person trying to spin a narrative here is you.
We’re calling them concentration camps because they are in fact concentration camps. People are using words correctly to describe things that those words describe. They’re not “spinning a narrative,” they’re communicating accurately. You’re insisting that people essentially lie about what things are because it makes you uncomfortable to hear. Well, that’s a you problem.
I wonder. I could see a big difference between the theory and the reality on that. Sure, theoretically they aren’t under arrest so presumably can be asked to be released into their country of origin. But if they say “I’ll wait for my visa at my uncle’s place in Tijuana”, how long til you get out?
Disregarding the other cases that involve splitting up families, where getting all the leaving happening at the same time may be difficult.
I don’t think anyone can argue in good faith with the fact that had the Nazis in the Holocaust not tattooed the term “concentration camp” into the psyche of much of the western world, the term “concentration camp” would not be being used today to characterize these shithole holding cells at the border.
It’s meant to draw as much attention to the inhumane conditions of those places as possible, which is a good thing. But it is relying on the average person’s immediate and emotional reaction upon hearing “concentration camp” and their immediate association of the term with Nazis and death camps and the genocide of millions of Jews.
I completely disagree. Except for the association with Nazis, the term concentration camp would be MORE widely used today, and it probably wouldn’t be very controversial.
Perhaps Trump has so tainted the term “President,” that when future generations use the term to describe the chief executive of the United States, then some can get outraged that the term could not be used except to make people draw the connection to Trump himself.
That’s the same amount of silliness that you and Ambivalid are buying into.