Our standards keep retreating, but we’re okay with that because we can still say “yet”.
You guys know we’re only keeping a tiny fraction of the total number of illegals we’ve apprehended over the last couple of years in the Border Patrol detention facilities, right?
Except for the diehard Republicans like yourself laughing it up at children living without soap and water, sleeping on concrete floors. I don’t think genocide is coming but people like yourself are definitely not going in the opposite direction.
I can’t recall “laughing it up” at the situation. Perhaps you’ve been reading too many mischaracterizations of my views by other posters, and mixed them up with what I’ve actually posted?
Nope, I merely interpret your “wrong brand of soap” and “she didn’t know what a faucet was” comments as laughing it up. Sticking with it.
Fair enough and I take your point. Perhaps we’re at stage 5.5 We should be very aware though of the “next steps” and the pains that will be taken to cover these up.
We can see how this works here in this very thread. “they’re lying - those conditions are not that bad” “Fake news” “That never happened” “The media are liars”
I relented much earlier in the thread and agreed that comparisons to concentration camps is valid. But I still think that ignoring the differences between historical concentration camps is a bad idea when the goal is to stop what’s going on. There is a very different political atmosphere in which American citizens of Mexican descent are rounded up and put into camps vs one where foreign citizens are detained in camps at the border.
Americans aren’t seeing their lifelong neighbors sent to a concentration camp and being blase about it. This is in almost no one’s day to day life. I think the more people see, the more pressure for change will happen. I fear that the solution might be “bigger camps” but hopefully you’ll do better.
I think you’re trying a bit too hard to make this square peg fit in your round hole labeled “genocide”. Just going down your checklist, Democrats and Republicans are on about stage 5.5 too (lots of “POLARIZATION” and some “PREPARATION”), but I’m not particularly concerned that a political genocide is right around the corner (or even remotely likely in the near-term future). Are you?
Yes. I see far, far too much dehumanization of “the other” for my taste. It is a very, very short slope from here to “they don’t even know how to use toilets, those animals”, and from there to “why give them decent conditions, they come from filth anyway” and from there to “just get rid of the vermin”
It happens quietly, slowly at first, and then with growing momentum.
And now we have the benefit of those at the very top screaming “FAKE NEWS” at things that they don’t like, and ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE" to the press who cover factual news about horrible things being done to people.
The reality is that people can do horrible, horrible things to “the other” and justify it all the way. There is no way that we are any better now than those in the past who committed atrocities, or condoned them, or simply looked the other way while they were happening.
You mean stuff like this:
or this:
???
The thing about creeping fascism is that there’s a lot of options for assigning “otherness” to groups. Once you get wide enough acceptance of the concept that certain groups can and should be caged and kept like animals waiting for the state’s due process -purely as a deterrent of course, you can pretty much expand the definition of ‘other’ however you want, I’d guess.
I hope you’re right about pressure for change. We seem to be seeing that rise, but it’s so precariously dependent on cable & network news coverage I can’t get too hopeful. I continue to depend on the Trump regime’s general disarray and incompetence at governance, but there are lots of competent proxies for Herr President working on fixing that.
2019: 9 deaths
2018: 10 deaths
2017: 9 deaths
2.5 years of the Trump Administration, 28 deaths
2016: 7 deaths
2015: 9 deaths
2014: 12 deaths
3 years of the Obama Administration, 28 deaths
Were you trying to deceive the other posters on this board?
…more people “were killed” over an eight year period than a two year period? You do realize that the way you have presented these number is misleading right?
Was this use of force included in those statistics?
If genocide is your talking point then perhaps picking up a history book will show you that we seem to be heading in the exact same direction. The statistics you cite are a meaningless distraction.
You do realize that the Department of Homeland Security’s Office of Inspector General released a report this week that described “At one facility, some single adults were held in standing-room-only conditions for a week, and at another, some single adults were held more than a month in overcrowded cells?” Why does it matter that it was only a “tiny fraction” of the total number? What fraction of people being held in standing-room only conditions for a week would you deem acceptable? Care to give us a number?
And do you think that their status as “illegal” should make an empirical difference in how we treat them? Do you think we should be treating the “legals” differently than the “illegals?” If they presented themselves at the border to ask for asylum (as many of the people in detention have done) why do you classify those people as illegal?
Not at all. What I said (“the Border Patrol killed more people under the Obama administration than it has the Trump administration”) is factually accurate, and I provided a link so anyone who wanted examine the numbers in detail. They don’t provide numbers for the first year of the Obama administration, 2009. And of course 2019 isn’t complete yet. Also, we’re only a few years into President Trump’s first term, but the numbers have more-or-less bounced around in statistically-insignificant ways. The average per year (for the 7 of 8) Obama years was 9.something deaths. The average for the first two years of the Trump administration was 9.5 deaths. This year we’re at 9 in June, and it’s worth noting there’s been a huge surge in the numbers of illegals being apprehended. My point is that illegals dying “by Border Patrol” is not some new horror that has only happened under President Trump. It happened under Obama too, and at about the same rate, and probably others before him.
It’s really a 7 year period and a 2.5 year period, and I trusted that Dopers were smart enough to realize that the Obama administration is concluded and the Trump administration is not yet. Perhaps that was an error.
Because the argument was put forth that the Border Patrol is preparing to commit genocide, and the fact that they release / transfer custody of most of their detainees after a short time period cuts against that argument. If they were really getting ready to kill them all, why have they released / transferred so many, and why do they continue to do so?
Sounds exactly like you knew you were comparing eight years of something to two and a half years of something in order to mislead people.
Serious question: is this the type of misleading statement that you would use in conversation with your wife?
Lol. Yes, you compare statistics from completely different lengths of time periods but you assumed Dopers would notice such a bullshit comparison. But it was still totally righteous for you to make that comparison, despite the obvious bullshitting aspect.
…the statistics speak for themselves. Your error was the editorial comment **you **made which misrepresented what the statistics actually said.
“Short” is relative. A week is not a short amount of time to be held in a standing-room-only cell. Things got this bad because the Border Patrol were acting in relative secrecy. Keeping this story in the news will help to stop things getting worse.
They don’t have to be getting ready to “kill them all” in order for them to be setting up the conditions where many people will die. “Just following orders” isn’t an excuse.
Sunlight exposes things and keeps things healthy.
This kind of misleading presentation is an example of bad faith argument. First, it misrepresents the evidence, seemingly intentionally. Second, you’ve switched the nature of the commentary - first saying that more people were killed under the Obama administration, then saying it was about the same rate.
I’m giving you fair notice here. I have no more patience for JAQing off, sealioning, other off topic tangents meant to rile people up, or other bad faith arguments. That goes for all threads in the future, including this one. I will bookmark this post and if it occurs again you will be warned.
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