What Happened To The "Raelians" and Child-Cloning Claims?

[ralph124c]

Remember that oddball group from Quebec? They said that they were about to announce the birth of a cloned human child. What became of them? Are they all locked upin a mental institution somewhere? As I recall, they dress in vaguely japanese style, and calim to be from another star system.
Are they still making the cloning claim? What was their motivation for cloning humans? :rolleyes:

[Smeghead]

They made the claim a few more times, everyone finally realized they were just a bunch of nutballs, we started ignoring them, and they went away.

[Exapno_Mapcase]

From the Clonaid website:

Letter sent by Dr. Boisselier to all UN Ambassadors:

At the upcoming 59th session of the General Assembly you will decide whether I am a criminal or not. By the same token you will tell the 13 cloned children that are alive today and all the future ones, whether they are the result of a crime or of the desire of loving parents. You will tell these belated twins whether it is criminal to be a twin or not.

Basically, they were really, really hurt that nobody believed them, so they decided to punish us by not showing us the cloned babies. We’re not worthy. And your tone isn’t helping the matter any. :rolleyes:

[Washoe]

If I might be permitted to inject a little levity into this thread: The Raelian Hymn.

[lukaspriest]

I recall seeing a news item about them actually coming out and saying that it was all a big hoax and nothing more than a publicity stunt. If a recall, it was Claude Rael himself that said it on video…I’m sure it could be verified.

[Snooooopy]

There were some Raelian women in “Playboy” recently. Not all that hot.

[kski]

It was exposed as a total farce. By the way, IMO, cloning of humans is not possible. And I’m not going to argue that with anyone. It’s simply not possible. DNA is not the only thing that makes up a person. Who knows what kind of disaster awaits cloning if it is ever attempted on humans. Don’t mess with Creation.

[Mangetout]

@kski

It was exposed as a total farce. By the way, IMO, cloning of humans is not possible. And I’m not going to argue that with anyone. It’s simply not possible.

Whilst acknowledging your statement that you’re not going to argue, you made a definite assertion here - which you really ought to back up with a smidgen of actual data. Why is it not possible?

DNA is not the only thing that makes up a person.

As far as I’m aware, nobody is asserting that humans (or any other organisms) are entirely composed of DNA - with whom exactly are you disagreeing here?

[quote[Who knows what kind of disaster awaits cloning if it is ever attempted on humans. Don’t mess with Creation.[/QUOTE]
If, as you say, it simply isn’t possible, then I would imagine failure is the kind of disaster that awaits.

Please start making sense.

[SpaceDog]

@Mangetout

If, as you say, it simply isn’t possible, then I would imagine failure is the kind of disaster that awaits.

Please start making sense.

I don’t presume to speak for kski but I’d guess that he (she?) is making the assertion that there is more to being ‘alive’ and ‘human’ than the physical parts (formed under direction of the DNA). Spark of life, soul whatever.

Course that assumes that such a thing exists and isn’t coded into the DNA anyway or wouldn’t arise during the ‘growing’ of the clone. And if all of that is true you’d end up with a soulless ‘zombie’ clone which would bring up a whole organ donation thing (and mass ethical arguing) etc.

That’s just what I’m imagining kski might mean. I’m mostly posting to repeat Mangetout that I’d like some facts/cites/backup to the ‘not possible’.

I’d say it’s perfectly possible with techniques and technologies probably more advanced than science tends to admit in public (although maybe not, that may be my inner conspiracy-theorist speaking). The ethics and morals of the situation are the major stumbling blocks at the moment.

SD

[chrisk]

Throwing in my 2 cents worth…

whether cloning of humans is biologically possible… jury is still out. There are strong indications that the same cloning techniques that worked on sheep and so on would not be effective on ‘homo sapiens’ because of the peculiarities of our cell structure, or something like that. No-one knows if other cloning techniques are practical, but probably there are. (Whether such techniques would work any better on people is an imponderable.)

Whether human clones (if possible) would be the same people, somehow ‘reborn’ - no, of course not. They would be completely unique individuals, just like all the babies who have ever been conceived and born. ‘belated twin’ is actually not a horrible way of describing it, and I’m a little dubious that a Raellian would have actually used the term.

(Some of the stuff I’ve heard about Raellians is really out there, that eventually they hope to freeze enough genetic material for thousands of clones and transfer their consciousness and memories from one to the next, essentially living forever. I can’t exactly make out why you need the clones if you have the consciousness transfer – if your consciousness would be altered by being transferred into a new individual, that would still happen even with a clone.)

Whether a human clone (if possible) would be a soul-less zombie – of course not!! Again, there’s very little there that would distinguish the conception of a clone from the conception of a normal human being. (Personally, I think the best definition of ‘soul’ is as an expression of the immeasurable complexities of the mind, emotions, and character of a sentient individual, but that’s getting off topic.)

“The science of superheroes” actually has a really great section on cloning addressing (and debunking) a lot of the myths on this subject. They bring it up in connection with the spider-man clone saga.

[chorpler]

@chrisk

(Some of the stuff I’ve heard about Raellians is really out there, that eventually they hope to freeze enough genetic material for thousands of clones and transfer their consciousness and memories from one to the next, essentially living forever. I can’t exactly make out why you need the clones if you have the consciousness transfer – if your consciousness would be altered by being transferred into a new individual, that would still happen even with a clone.)

I believe it is to have a body that stays pretty much the same as your original. And I guess it’s possible that the process might require modification of the recipient brain from the beginning of development, making an engineered clone (or at least a genetically engineered fetus of some kind) the only way to go.

[Mangetout]

@SpaceDog

I don’t presume to speak for kski but I’d guess that he (she?) is making the assertion that there is more to being ‘alive’ and ‘human’ than the physical parts (formed under direction of the DNA). Spark of life, soul whatever.

I have privately speculated such things myself (based on this and a few other things kski has said elsewhere), however, for the purposes of this thread, I’m not going to play the unsafe move of assuming that my speculations are correct.

[Troy_McClure_SF]

@Smeghead

…everyone finally realized they were just a bunch of nutballs…

I’ve never heard the word “finally” used to describe a six-second interval before.

[bordelond]

@Smeghead

They made the claim a few more times, everyone finally realized they were just a bunch of nutballs, we started ignoring them, and they went away.

What I want to know is how the heck the Raelians got CNN and other news outlets to take them seriously for a while.

I mean, CNN interrupted their programming one morning in late December 2002 to show Dr. Boisellier’s press conference revealing the “successful cloning.” CNN, at the time, was treating the “cloning” story with the same dead-pan gravity with which they’d treat a plane crash, or the passing of an ex-president.

So, did any heads at CNN (or elsewhere) roll? Was it not known ahead of time that the Raelians were off their rockers?

[alterego]

Clonaid

Clonaid is a self-described “human cloning company.” It is openly associated with the Raelian Movement, which sees cloning as part of the path to immortality.

Most scientists, noting the high incidence of malformations and fetal deaths in animal cloning, have condemned Clonaid for premature human experimentation.

Claims of success in human cloning

On December 27, 2002, Dr. Brigitte Boisselier, a Raelian bishop and CEO of Clonaid, announced to the world press that Clonaid had successfully cloned a human being. Boisselier said that the mother delivered by Caesarean section somewhere outside the United States, and that both the mother and the little girl, Eve, are healthy. Dr. Boisselier did not present the mother or child, or any DNA samples that could be used to confirm her claim at the press conference, although she did explain the procedure which she intended to use to confirm her claims. It has subsequently become apparent that the announcement was made prior to genetic testing to evaluate whether the child in question is actually a clone: Dr. Boisselier was therefore stating her belief that her procedure had resulted in a clone, not announcing results showing that the child was a clone.

On January 2, 2003, Dr. Boisselier told a French television audience that the American parents of the supposed clone are balking at providing DNA evidence to prove that their baby is really a clone. The parents are allegedly afraid that the state of Florida will try to take the baby away from them.

On January 4, 2003, Boisselier announced the birth of another human baby to a couple of Dutch lesbians. Clonaid also says there will be four other cloned babies delivered by February 2003.

Skepticism about claims

Several scientists who were interviewed regarding the announcement averred skepticism regarding both the authenticity and the ethics of Clonaid’s procedures. These included Lord Robert Winston, head of the IVF research team at London’s Hammersmith Hospital, and Tanja Dominko of the Oregon Regional Primate Center’s monkey cloning project.

Scientists with experience in animal cloning have stated that cloning has a low rate of success per implantation, and that many cloned fetuses are malformed or do not survive to be born. They are surprised that Clonaid does not appear to be affected by these problems; either Clonaid has been extremely lucky in discovering a superior method of cloning, they claim, or the company is making false claims. In any case, it seems odd to many that Clonaid is not more forthcoming with proof of their success. Some have suggested it odd that the company has started with human cloning, instead of working first with animals. (The company has no record of having successfully cloned any non-human animal.) Many seem to find the company’s credibility further reduced by its connections to the Raelian movement.

In April 2003, The Boston Globe revealed that the company has no address, no board of directors, and only two employees. Nevertheless, the company continues to charge upwards of $200,000 for its “cloning” services, leading some to suspect that the organization is just a money-raising enterprise for the Raelians. The Raelians deny any direct connection to Clonaid, but admit being in support of Clonaid’s actions. [1] (http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/113/metro/Little_behind_Clonaid_files_reveal+.shtml)

Lack of evidence

So far, no verifiable evidence has been presented by Clonaid, despite claims that they would do this within days of their initial announcement. They claim that the parents of the first cloned child have had second thoughts about submitting their child to scientific tests.

This lack of evidence is surprising, since laboratory test are performed on most newborn children, and most cloning projects perform extensive tests on cloned newborns to verify that they are true clones.

This has led to assertions that Clonaid’s claims may be an elaborate hoax.

On January 10, 2003, a U.S. court ordered Clonaid to reveal the identity and whereabouts of the alleged cloned baby.

Later Events

On October 9, 2003, newspaper The Montreal Gazette published an article accusing Clonaid and the Raelian organization of maintaining an outright hoax in its claims regarding cloning a human baby.

Religious response

Clonaid is openly condemned by many Jewish, Christian and Muslim religious leaders, some of whom view it as challenging long-held definitions of human dignity and encroaching on the power of God, who these faiths view as “creating Man in His own image”. Others consider the Raelians’ suggestion that cloning oneself is a form of immortality is disingenuous at best, and question whether immortality is desirable or wise.

There is also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raelism

[ranovercat]

@ralph124c

Remember that oddball group from Quebec? They said that they were about to announce the birth of a cloned human child. What became of them? Are they all locked upin a mental institution somewhere? As I recall, they dress in vaguely japanese style, and calim to be from another star system.
Are they still making the cloning claim? What was their motivation for cloning humans? :rolleyes:

Sign me up, I want to be cloned… who cares if there is a few screw-ups of me before they get me right.