Huh?
(Unless you are talking about a theology that holds that this “instant sin” is that, until you have accepted Jesus as your saviour, you are automatically going to Hell. In which case I’ll say, to myself because it’s tacky to talk like this in GD, “That’s a stupid theology and not in keeping with the concept of a just and merciful God and people who think that are as stupid as their theology.”)
What’ll really blow your mind is that, if the whole “battle between good and evil” thing is to be believed, the role of Lucifer is a crucial one that can’t be left unfilled. After all, with no temptation, there is no salvation. So if Satan decided one day to stop trying to destroy the souls of mankind, we’d all be screwed.
Another possibility is that Lucifer will be forgiven… or maybe he’s already been forgiven?.. but he’ll still retain the duty of trying to tempt humanity away from God’s word.
Y’know, either you should think about this while stoned or don’t think about it at all. My head hurts.
Not a bad response, jmullaney. I’ll pull on my thinkin’ cap about that one.
Sua
Dropzone,
Deconstructing salvation is a very messy enterprize. What’s this about a just and merciful God? Where is God’s justice? Where is God’s mercy? Jesus supposedly died for my sins, which I DO NOT HAVE, which I NEVER HAD, but I’m STILL going to be judged, theoretically, for not accepting this? That was my point. Theologically speaking, he didn’t die for my sins, he died for the right to condemn me for not embracing him or admitting that I had sins to begin with. I see it differently, of course, than someone who accepts this all without question. I repeat, I have no sins and I don’t need some self-righteous human sacrifice to redeem me. I am free of that evil demonology and can prove it lacks necessity. In the old days I would have been murdered for these beliefs, so tell us again how God is merciful and just.
Attrayant…nice take on the basic problem of the OP, but your approach rests on an assumption made by most Christians that “decision time ends with death” – and this is nowhere spelled out, though a couple of passages seem to imply it. And I have a significant problem with it, in that it makes God limited by death. And it’s quite explicit in Scripture that He overcame death – we don’t celebrate Easter out of a superstitious fear that if we don’t believe in the Bunny, we won’t get any candy! :eek:
As for what you did experience, I’m sorry it wasn’t a particularly good experience for you – most people appear to find that event an occasion of “religious enlightenment”: “Oh, God, oh yes, Jesus, yes…!” 
In all seriousness, I don’t have a clue what Satan’s ultimate destiny is, as per the OP. And this is an ignorance I can live with – the idea of what God has in store for people is a tough enough nut to crack without worrying about putatively rebellious angels who function as tempters as well. I leave that to His mercy and to the good sense of a prideful being who knows God better than I and who ought to have come to his senses about the Divine Plan by now. I might also bring up Voltaire’s quote to the effect that if the devil ever took over the godding job, he would find it necessary to take on the attributes of divinity. And the use Heinlein made of this in perhaps my favorite attack on Gnostic mysticism and fundamentalist Weaselism.
And, of course, let me add, “Welcome back, Satan.” :::Envisions a crowd of MPSIMS groupies dressed as Sweathogs breaking into a parody of “Welcome Back Kotter”::::
What sort of “spelling out” would satisfy you? The Sermon to the Multitudes in Luke seems to make it pretty clear that death is the end. E.g.:
To say there is a repentance after death suggests to the contrary that the owner knows when the Lord will come like a thief in the night as he will be announced with unmistakable bells and whistles.
Isn’t that like saying you have a problem with the hundred yard dash because it limits the judges to figure out who the best runner is of a hundred yards?
I asked my sunday school teacher this same question when I was 10.
She just looked at me and said “Of course not, he’s Satan!”
Actually I believe you have commited the only unforgivable sin for bringing this up, see ya in Hhh… err… at your place.
Jeeze! Ya don’t like it? Change religions! If you don’t believe in something THEN IT CAN’T HURT YOU! Look at me: a church-goin’ atheist with NO fear of the afterlife, no fear of judgement, and no fear of eternal damnation. Why? 'CUZ IT’S ALL MADE UP!!!
Sheesh, it’s not TOUGH, like being a Ford man buying a Chevy.
Did Satan (Lucifer-Satan, not Brian-Satan) ever die? Last I heard, he and his ilk were cast out of God’s presence without ever getting a chance to be born.
So Satan and the other demons are going to be punished forever for commiting an act that was preordained, which they never had the free will to not perform, and can never repent of.
Isn’t this like telling a dog to fetch a stick and then hitting it for doing so, forever, and never allowing it to run away?
can’t just repent. have to do the negative karma thing to compensate for the evil deeds. that’s why they don’t repent.
would have to get a new one anyway.
Dal Timgar
What about the Genesis serpent? God had not commanded the serpent not to tempt Eve, right? Seems to me that the scaly one got a bit of a bum deal, too. And all he did was tell Eve what eating the fruit would do for her. Admittedly, he may have known more thoroughly than Eve and Adam did just how pissed off God was going to be if she did so, but this hasn’t been firmly established by the evidence (in fact we don’t know what the snake did or did not know beforehand other than “eating those fruits will let you know good from evil” and “no, eating those fruits will not kill you”.
And what’s with this bruising of heads and heels? I guess it would not have worked as well had God sought to bruise the heel of the serpent and the head of the man, given his subsequent herpeto-limbectomy procedure, but aside from that…?
Dropzone,
I did change religions, from traditional-provincial thinking (theirs) to logical-objective thinking (mine). As long as monotheism is political, it is fair game in season. Why join just any religion, when you can not join all of them?
In so much as they were created spiritual beings with free will, they were ‘born’, they just never existed on the spiritual plane.
This brings up one of the big differences between Judaism and Christianity. Judaism holds that angels have no free will, they are basically extensions of God, and thus cannot rebel. In the Old Testament, Satan works for God, and his job is to question and test God’s creation - in this context, Genesis and Job make a lot more sense. The whole war in Heaven with Satan being a rebel against God and cast out is a Christian creation.
Yeah, Badtz. I guess it’s because the God of the New Testament needed an evil foil. This is another reason why I am proud of my Jewish heritage. The Old Testament God didn’t need to have underlings do His dirty work. Dude rolled up his sleeves and whether it was worldwide floods or turning people into piles of salt, did his own hits! I mean, you have to admire Him for that…
Yer pal,
Satan
If we leave out the “repentance” and “forgiveness” parts out of the equation, what’s to stop Satan from just quitting the game? If he’s not allowed to change, and he HAS to play the game just as it is written in the Bible, than, at best, he is a pawn, and at worst, the most maligned victim in history.
Of course, I expect no better from a “god” that would tell a group of people fleeing their home, which is being destoyed at that moment,“Do Not Look Back!!!”, knowing full well that someone would have to look back now, human nature being what it is. Lot’s wife was merely another victim of “Pettygod the All Powerful”.
Forget Satans unemployment, how about down here? Millions of religion related jobs worldwide would be put out of work if Satan “retires”.
The strain on world economics! :eek:
Um, are you guys agreeing or disagreeing? Either Satan doesn’t have free will and is hence an underling, or he does and isn’t. Y’all seem to make it both ways.
And besides, read Revelations – there are plenty of good angels in there murdering, swearing, etc. on God’s behalf. Same God – just on vacation storing up the pent up wrath.
Which sugguests that Satan was MADE with the intent of being cast out. So it wasnt his actions that made him revolt, but is only following a (script/programming) that he was MADE to fulfill. heres a thought, somebody makes a virus, and spreads it around, and makes a counter program that people have to buy from him, is the Virus Evil? or the maker?
Seems to me the deck was stacked against poor ol Satan from the beginning, if he has no free will, it wasnt HIM that did it. he had no choice but TO do it.
–If we leave out the “repentance” and “forgiveness” parts out of the equation, what’s to stop Satan from just quitting the game? If he’s not allowed to change, and he HAS to play the game just as it is written in the Bible, than, at best, he is a pawn, and at worst, the most maligned victim in history–
Seems to me, that would take free will to decide to do that. its not in his “programming” to be able to even quit if he wanted to, assuming he even has “wants” programmed in. Of course I could be wrong on the whole “Free Will” thing.
To me this just makes Christianity more of a Joke. If it is even true, there is a deeper reason to why he would create something like Satan the way that he is. (because by all definitions God did create him that way, with all he would do in mind) From what I understand of Free will, if we did not have it, we would be “robots” or a more modern version, computer programs. programmed to do a specific task…Aka angels…hence satan being an angel would had to have been either made that way or been given free will, which I think would have been noted.
Another gripe (which is a bit unrelated to the OP) that I have with Satan is his “supposed” Omnipotence. Now I could be wrong, but it seems to me that God was the only one with this ability. How is it he is Everwhere at once, and has such awesome ablities of instilling mind control on billions of people all at once?
Personally I have always thought of satan as an analogy to us. (humans in general) This would make the bible a bit inaccurate in a way. We wanted the throne, he cast us out of heaven. The Fruit of the tree of Knowledge was forbidden us because it would lead us down a path (which we are still walking down) that would bring us to too much power and possibly give us another chance at the Throne…or utter banishment. Of course he offers us repentance, to cast away the dreams of the Throne, and accept him as our sovereign, he will allow us back into his kingdom. If not he will be forced to destroy us so that he can retain his rule.
Of course it could just be my imagination…ive been told I have alot of it.
