No, my point is that we’re not living in a society in which starvation is a non-trivial concern. Therefore the offer of food is not widely vested with the tremendous emotional significance you attach to it. We still have social networks, of course, but they no longer (if they ever were) have to based around the gastro-intestinal track.
But all you’ve done, at best, is shown that offer-acceptance is basic to human interaction in India. There’s a heck of a lot of people in India, but there’s still a heck of a lot more outside of India. And while I’m hardly an expert on the area, I do know that it’s such a tremendously culturally diverse region that I view any generalizations about “Indian culture” with extreme skepticism. I question wether those are genuine Indian social dynamics you’re talking about, or just acsenray’s family’s social dynamics, or somewhere in between.
That doesn’t seem to be at all what you’ve been discussing up to this point, but whatever. I can roll with it.
So, is it possible for someone who is a vegan, or a kosher jew, or has serious food allergies to become a mature member of society, in your view? Someone from any one of those groups is going to require just that sort of consideration before you can share a meal with them.
Eh… it is like that pretty much all over India. It’s incumbent upon a host there to treat a guest as if they were a god, and if the guest refuses pretty much everything that they are offered, it is embarrassing and shameful to the host, because they’ve failed to find a way to please you. At that point, if you ever intend to interact with that person again, you find a way to eat something, even if it is unfamiliar or not to your taste (says the person who may have consumed some of the hottest chilli chicken in the world to avoid offending her hosts).
To a certain extent, I also found the same attitude in outback Australia. And in my own German mother’s kitchen. And in the homes of my American-born friends of recent Irish and Italian extraction. Why? Well, it’s because…
Just so.
A host should never try to force something on a guest, I fully agree. However, if you (general you) refuse every attempt your host makes to provide food that you will enjoy, as part of their effort to make you feel at home, then your host is going to feel that they have failed in a big way to achieve their primary goal. For your friends who know you well, it may no longer be a big deal, but if people don’t know you as well it’s definitely a shock of sorts.
Not trying to be confrontational here, just trying to share a perspective.
Again, this is not at all the same situation as The Picky Eater™.
My sister has celiac disease, which means she can’t eat anything with gluten in it. That rules out most breads/cereals/cakes/pasta as well as ANY dish that uses wheat flour at any point in the preparation (and I’m simplifying the restrictions here). However, she can find something to eat in virtually any restaurant she walks into, and cooking for her at home is even easier, because not a lot of separate dishes have to be made just for her. She is careful, but not picky.
By way of contrast, I have a co-worker who will not, apparently, eat anything other than buffalo chicken fingers (mild) or nachos (with jalapenos on the side). On the infrequent occasions that a mutual friend comes to town for a visit, the ONLY place we can ever go to eat with Jeff has the aforementioned items on the menu. If we suggest anything else, he refuses to come along. What he’s going to do now that this one restaurant is slated to be closed this summer, I have no idea, but I suspect he’ll come out with us even less. And that’s a shame, because he’s good company.
So what if nothing is exactly what pleases the guest? Is possible to just be, y’know, not hungry in India, or is that a terrible social faux pas too?
That example? Incredibly poor hospitality. If the only way to not offend my host is to eat something that would (to me) cause me actual physical pain, then I’m not ever going to that person’s house again. That shows a total lack of respect for the comfort and happiness of your guest.
… the people you socialize with tend to share the same prejudices and assumptions that you do?
I agree that it is incumbent on the guest to not make a big deal over not wanting food. A simple, “No thank you, I’m not hungry,” ought to put an end to the issue and preclude feelings of failure on the part of the host. The host should offer the guest whatever he wants (within reason, of course) but that does not create in the guest an obligation to fulfil needs that don’t exsist.
No, it’s exactly the same as a picky eater. The picky eater just doesn’t have an Officially Approved Excuse. Seriously: what difference does it make to you if you can only go to one restaurant with a particular friend because he only eats chicken fingers, or if you can only go to one restaurant with a particular friend because its the only restaurant in the area that observes hallal? Personally, “I don’t like that other stuff” makes a lot more sense as an excuse than “God told me not to eat that stuff,” but since it’s not my stomach that the food’s going into, then its none of my business why that person has a limited diet.
So what happens in India if someone has a food allergy?
Honestly, it’s just food. I like food and I like to eat yummy things, but it’s not a big production. I’m just going to shit it out later anyways. Why make it such an ordeal for those who DON’T like it?
Or if they’re Muslim and don’t eat non-halal meat, or if they’re Hindu and don’t eat beef, or if they’re vegetarian? I thought all three of those were fairly common in India.
The point I was trying to make, Miller, is that food and hospitality go hand in hand in a lot of places. Your perspective - that it should not be of any concern to the host whether their guest eats or not - is, I suspect, an American attitude, and not a universal one at that.
Since people seem to be focusing on India now, let me give my impressions from my time there.
Every impromptu visit I and my colleague made somewhere - usually a mining company’s office, sometimes to the home of a company official - was accompanied by an offer of at least something to drink, and usually something to eat as well (like someone might offer some cookies here in the U.S.). We were in rural areas where it was a Very Big Deal to play host to a couple of American scientists. Of course there were times when I would rather not have had anything - the freshly washed grapes in one place spring immediately to mind - but the simplest way to allow my host to feel that they had done their best for me was to have just ONE bite. That was enough to satisfy everyone.
The chilli chicken incident was the result of actually being invited to lunch at someone’s home, and it was an honest mistake that the food ended up so hot (a misunderstanding between my driver and the ladies of the household). As a matter of fact, my grad student guide/translator wanted me to decline the invitation after I had already accepted, but the head of the household was clearly upset at the thought. They had gone out and bought the chicken especially for me, and let me emphasize, these were poor people who were pulling out all the stops in my honor. I could handle a little discomfort so as not to reject these peoples’ hospitality.
As for the allergy/religious questions raised by Guin and Anne Neville: if you have an allergy, you explain it to your host as the reason you’re not eating. They can understand that, and at the same time you’re making it clear that you aren’t faulting their efforts, because they just didn’t know about you.
Muslims and Hindus would NEVER offer each other food that they know would be forbidden (and there, it’s usually pretty easy to guess religious affiliation by their names). Muslims will simply go veg if they aren’t sure the meat available is halal. It’s not a problem at all.
FOR YOU. Clearly that’s not true for everyone. When in Rome/India/Australia/Germany/Italy, etc. etc., but if such accommodation would bother you that much, then I suppose you would only socialize with people who “tend to share the same prejudices and assumptions that you do,” to borrow Miller’s phrasing.
Sounds like a personal problem to me. And I’m not picking on yousunfish. It’s just that yours was the most recent post expressing the same thing that others have said before you.
So now we’ve gone from “how do adults with limited food likes cope in the modern world” to “people who aren’t adventurous in their eating habits really harsh the rest of the worlds’ collective mellow” to " it’s a dire social faux pas" to “this is why Iran wants to go nuclear”.
Not that this discussion hasn’t been interesting; clearly it has or I wouldn’t have participated so much. Let me answer the initial question, as, in hindsight I really wish I had just done so in the first place:
I was a particularly picky eater as a child. Over the years I expanded my tastes as I was ready. I have had relationships and dates , just like anyone else, without it being a serious bone of contention (except for the one example I gave about 500 posts ago). I go out to luncheons, dinners and all manner of social gatherings. I don’t point and wrinkle my nose at what anyone else eats. I don’t secretly or publicy judge them as gluttons if they fill their plate with anything and everything. I have been known to cook things for people that I would not eat myself (I dated a vegetarian for several months and did my best to accomadate him. I didn’t mind; he appreciated it. We ate, and moved on. Who cares.) I would never knowingly insult you or shun your hospitality and will not even make mention of my likes and dislikes unless you push it. If you push it (and you do; a lot) I will put the burden on myself, deprecatingly admitting that I’m a bit fussy, but please don’t let that stop you. I will suffer your sneers and condescension because, though I don’t really understand what your freakin’ damage is, Heather, I know that, for whatever reason you have an issue with it. If you like me and know me even a little bit, you won’t invite me over for rack of lamb. You know I won’t enjoy that so you will save your invitation for another time or say “hey, WOOK, I know you’re not into the lamb thing so much, but if you’d like to come share coffee and dessert, we’d love to have you. You are, after all, the life of the party”.
I do not, to the best of my knowledge, impose my relationship (or lack thereof)with food on anyone, and I sure as hell wish the same courtesy would be extended to me.
Sounds like a personal problem to me. And I’m not picking on yousunfish. It’s just that yours was the most recent post expressing the same thing that others have said before you.
So now we’ve gone from “how do adults with limited food likes cope in the modern world” to “people who aren’t adventurous in their eating habits really harsh the rest of the worlds’ collective mellow” to " it’s a dire social faux pas" to “this is why Iran wants to go nuclear”.
Not that this discussion hasn’t been interesting; clearly it has or I wouldn’t have participated so much. Let me answer the initial question, as, in hindsight I really wish I had just done so in the first place:
I was a particularly picky eater as a child. Over the years I expanded my tastes as I was ready. I have had relationships and dates , just like anyone else, without it being a serious bone of contention (except for the one example I gave about 500 posts ago). I go out to luncheons, dinners and all manner of social gatherings. I don’t point and wrinkle my nose at what anyone else eats. I don’t secretly or publicy judge them as gluttons if they fill their plate with anything and everything. I have been known to cook things for people that I would not eat myself (I dated a vegetarian for several months and did my best to accomadate him. I didn’t mind; he appreciated it. We ate, and moved on. Who cares.) I would never knowingly insult you or shun your hospitality and will not even make mention of my likes and dislikes unless you push it. If you push it (and you do; a lot) I will put the burden on myself, deprecatingly admitting that I’m a bit fussy, but please don’t let that stop you. I will suffer your sneers and condescension because, though I don’t really understand what your freakin’ damage is, Heather, I know that, for whatever reason you have an issue with it. If you like me and know me even a little bit, you won’t invite me over for rack of lamb. You know I won’t enjoy that so you will save your invitation for another time or say “hey, WOOK, I know you’re not into the lamb thing so much, but if you’d like to come share coffee and dessert, we’d love to have you. You are, after all, the life of the party”.
I do not, to the best of my knowledge, impose my relationship (or lack thereof)with food on anyone, and I sure as hell wish the same courtesy would be extended to me.
I’m 20 and I’ve always been a picky eater. I do make it a point to occasionally try foods that I dislike - just in case I change my mind. I try tomatoes about once a year and say “Nope, still don’t like 'em”. Some veggies I wont eat cooked (carrots, bellpeppers) and I wont eat ANY out of a can (does anyone else hate the “can” taste?). Smells and textures are a big thing for me also.
I refuse to eat Mexican or “Tex-Mex” food. I can’t remember a Mexican meal that didn’t cause stomach problems for me. :eek:
I rarely use any condiments.
If I’m at someone elses house (which is extremely rare) and I know I wont like a dish they’re serving, I wont bother putting it on my plate. I’d rather be considered rude than wasteful.
There aren’t many foods that I’ve changed my mind about over the years. If I didn’t like it at 7 or 8 years old, I probably still don’t. But I give new things a fair chance every now and then.
Absolutely. So if the host knows in advance that you have certain requirements, they ought to try to fulfill them if possible. I have been around Picky Eaters™ on occasion, though, who when they realized that their requirements weren’t going to be met for whatever reason, did not take it in stride, and the level to which some of these folks can take things is beyond rude. (I’m recalling one person in particular, the grown son of some of my parents’ friends. He would only eat cheeseburgers or hotdogs, and only with certain conditions attached. Hamburgers had to be beef only, no spices, cooked medium well, topped with A-1 Steak Sauce. Cheese for the burger could only be Land o’ Lakes white American cheese, deli cut to a certain thickness. Hotdogs could be either Sabrett’s or Ball Park, but he had to have Libby’s sauerkraut and French’s yellow mustard, Heinz relish on the side. Potato buns for either hamburger or hot dog. A couple times my mom made a mistake… and he stood there with wrinkled nose, eating those ingredients he did find acceptable, making it clear though that the food was not to his taste. THIS was a Picky Eater™, and IMHO an obnoxious one to boot.)
It does make a difference to me, maybe because there’s actually a wide variety of restaurants in the area, and I wouldn’t mind trying some of them with my friends. Since my budget is limited, I can’t just go by myself all the time; anyways, half the fun for me is sharing the experience. Also, for me, respecting someone’s religious dietary requirements still offers a helluva lot more variety than trying to accommodate someone’s rigid and EXTREMELY LIMITED personal dietary preferences all the time. He won’t even entertain the thought of trying someplace else for a change of pace (different buffalo chicken fingers?). Really, it’s not as if other potential options don’t exist.
So if we want Jeff to come along, the rest of us have to deal with mediocre food, warm beer and an overabundance of drunken college kids. Why can’t he at least try something for the sake of his friends, who otherwise have to accommodate his wishes to the exclusion of their own?
It has been argued in this thread that the refusal of food being an insult is a universal human trait, and the example of India has been offered as proof of that universality. I’ve been primarily arguing against the idea that this is somehow ingrained in the human psyche, not that it doesn’t exsist in any culture.
You can add Canada to the list of countries where people will be offended if you refuse their offered food*. You probably won’t know that they’re offended, because we are Canadian, after all, but it will be offensive to the host. And take your damned shoes off at the door.
*With the same conditions as stated previously - religious/allergic/dietary restrictions are fine. Just turning your nose up at everything offered because you’re a Picky Eater will give offense.
I don’t know, Miller. Food and socializing/community seem pretty closely linked in a large amount of ways to me. On birthdays, people go out for dinner (and someone usually buys them their dinner); birthday cakes; dinner parties; when an adult child comes home to the parents’ house, they usually cook foods the child likes; Christmas/Hannukah/etc.* and all the food associated with that; popcorn at movies, beer and taco chips at sporting events, sunflower seeds and baseball; there’s a whole lot of connection here.
*And now I’m hearing Abu saying, “Etc? There are three billion of us, you know.”
No, that’s just your garden variety asshole. The problem there isn’t what he eats, it’s his attitude of self-importance and entitlement. If he’s going to be that particular, he needs to realize that most of the time, people won’t be able to accomodate him. There’s nothing wrong with being a picky eater, just be gracious about it.
Sorry, but that’s bullshit. What’s the difference between your friend Jeff, who will only eat at the one restaurant that serves those particular chicken fingers, and your friend Moishe, who will only eat at the one place that keeps a kosher kitchen? In both cases, you’re having to tailor your dining experiences to suit your companion. Why does it matter to you what the person’s excuse is?
You can’t find something to do together that doesn’t involve food?
I never said differently. All I’m saying is that getting offended over what someone else eats is intensely stupid.
Unless they’re a cannibal, and the meal was a personal friend.
As to the mortal insult given to hosts by refusing food–this is where culture plays a huge part. In those instances (like visiting a poor, rural village) food is a symbol --a part of a ceremony, if you will. Of course one should not insult the hosts in that situation.
That is far removed from “come to my dinner party, oh wait-I forgot you don’t like mushrooms you immature, spoiled, fussy problem of a ‘friend’ we have.” Gee, I can’t wait to come! Thanks so much for your pity invite to loser me. :rolleyes:
I don’t get to rural villages often (no frequent flyer miles), but I would do my best to not vomit up the offering as soon as I had ingested it. I would also be very polite and gracious in my acceptance of the gesture of hospitality. That is lightyears away from “you’re not eating the beet salad. I cooked all day for you. <heavy sigh>”. Oy.
I thought we were talking about how “fussy” people cope as adults. We’ve heard a lot about how much of a PIA we are–thanks, we’ve heard that before–the last time we went to the local pizza joint together. :rolleyes: (I once had a couple openly mock me-they asked me if I was 12-when I asked for plain cheese pizza. These were the same folks who turned down rumaki at my house-made by me-because, “we don’t eat organ meat.” Now who’s rude?)
I, myself, am tired of being held to some strange standard that I don’t agree with and that has little meaning in most social interactions today. So often, the offering of food is an empty societal convention. Didn’t someone do an installation on the bridal shower piece of cake that was handed from guest to guest, with no-one accepting it or eating it. Often in my social settings, offering food is required, but I have yet to attend something where eating is also required. We live in such abundance, food is almost just a party favor in some ways. Who hasn’t been urged to take a plate home or similiar? Food is used as a transaction device often. Some of us just plain aren’t into the game.
My MIL has stopped(after 20 years) trying to guilt me into any type of food–it’s obnoxious and annoying to be nagged to eat something. I don’t consider this to be concern or worry-it’s control and an overdeveloped or skewed sense of hospitality. I don’t have a cite, but Miss Manners has been known to advise folks who are badgered to eat X, to reply, “thank you, but I don’t care to.” It doesn’t become an issue until someone makes it an issue by not allowing a polite refusal to stand.
That trumps any “rudeness” of the initial declining, in my book.
And why would you think so? I think I’ve said several times that I’m not talking about a situation in which a person every once in a while turns down something because he or she doesn’t like it, or at a party where there are many choices sticks largely to the things he or she likes or likes the best. I have said repeatedly that I’m talking about the kind of person who routinely refuses all or most of the things he or she is offered or has such strict likes and dislikes that his social circle’s own plans and options are limited by them. Didn’t I say that I myself turn down foods I don’t like?
I, myself, have often had to make the point that India is so diverse that you can’t make a generalised statement about its culture. But, if there is an exception, then here it is. You don’t have to take my word for it if you don’t want to, but it seems I’m not the only one who’s saying so. And it seems that in most places around the world, including the United States, it is true to at least some degree.
Even if you’re not hungry, you are expected to eat a little of something. Unless you’re suffering from some illness, lack of hunger is not considered a good excuse to flatly refuse everything offered.
And that makes all the difference. That’s the way it is with social obligations. And you know what, even if you don’t like anything being offered you, it’s not going to kill you to eat a little bit of something that you find yucky. As adults, we have to do a lot of things that we don’t particularly want to and many of them are a lot more odious than taking a bite of food that doesn’t taste good to us.
Or if they’re Muslim and don’t eat non-halal meat, or if they’re Hindu and don’t eat beef, or if they’re vegetarian? I thought all three of those were fairly common in India.
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These kinds of excuses are accepted. There are additional religious-based food prohibitions as well, and these are all fine. However, “I’m not going to eat anything you’re offering me simply because I don’t like the taste.” is not a socially acceptable excuse.
India was offered as proof that in many places the United States, the rules are even more stringent. Here, there’s more tolerance for a certain level of pickiness, but there’s still some limit to how adults are expected to behave.
Like it or not, motives do matter. “My religion forbids it”/“My ethics forbid it”/“My allergies forbid it”/“I’m not feeling well enough at this moment”/“My doctor forbids it”/“I will die if I eat it” – these are all excuses that society will accept from adults. Even “I’m sorry, I just don’t like this one thing, so I’ll pass” you can get away with so long as it doesn’t become noticeable or obstructive.
However, “I only eat things from this finite list.”/“I only eat these particular foods if they are prepared in a certain way”/“I do not touch foods with certain flavourings or spices”/“I don’t eat this whole category of foods or cuisines”/“Don’t mind me I don’t like anything you’re serving, so I’m not going to eat at all, because I just find it all yucky”/“I don’t eat anything that I didn’t learn to like when I was 8”/“If you want me to join you, then you have to tailor your menu to meet my exacting standards because everything else makes me just gag, bleah” – These things fall below the expectations for adult behaviour. Even in the United States, where we are relatively more relaxed about things.
It’s not an issue of getting offended over what someone else eats. It’s an issue of getting offended by someone who refuses everything you offer unless it fits a narrow set of parameters.
And in most of the circumstances I’m talking about, I don’t expect most people would address it very directly either.
Why? Assuming the person isn’t phrasing it as a complete douche, like in your loaded examples, what’s wrong with this? A person doesn’t like anything on the menu, and so just politely passes. Why do you care? Why should anyone else care? Don’t just tell me this attitude exsists: I already know it does. And don’t tell me it’s prevalent, like that’s any sort of excuse, because I’m not going to believe you anyway. Just give me one good reason that adds up to something more than the offended person having way too fucking little in their own lives to worry about.
I know that there are far too many rude people out there to ask who would refuse in such rude ways, but really–how often does one come across this?
“I’m not eating that; I dont’ like it” is NOT acceptable, even from a 2 year old. That is just plain bad manners–I think we all agree on that. If that were my child, s/he would be pulled aside and told that while not eating is OK, being rude about declining is not.
But none of this matters to you–no matter how graciously I say no, I am still an asshat in your book. So be it–that is YOUR problem, not mine.
You say that motivation is everything and that the reason for the refusal is paramount. I say nonsense to that. How about this? I refuse to mess up my calorie count/south beach diet/insert weight loss program of your choice here, just to make someone else feel better. How is that different from my silent thinking of “oh, god–there are green peppers in that–so much for that dish”?
Yep, the weight loss is health related–but so is my avoidance of green peppers. They are just the nastiest things out there, IMO. I won’t willingly put one in my mouth. If I do, I will taste it for days. No thank you, I am not going through that to spare your fragile feelings.
It seems to me that too many people are too hung up on food. Get over it–it’s a piece of chicken; it’s a slice of cake.
Esoteric circumstances / reasons (such as ascenray’s) aside, there should be no problem unless anyone, on either side of he food issue, makes it one.
You eat what you like. I eat what I like. Neither of us comments on the other’s choices; why should we?
Extreme cases aside, don’t try to tell me that those that don’t share your love of food impact your life, unless you create the situation. You can’t stand the fact that someone doesn’t share your views (whether it’s food or politics, or the color of your toenail polish)that is all on you. Neither side is going to change the other, but the difference is, we don’t care. How often do you hear any of your aquaintances try to pursuade you how “icky” sushi is? We . Don’t. Care. What. You. Eat.
I think that what is interesting about the folks that will only eat 5 or 6 items is that the items are usually pretty unhealthy. Not always, of course, but much of the time. Geez, if I only ate hamburgers and hot dogs, wouldn’t malnutrition rear its ugly head pretty soon?
I think that is one of the reason that I try to eat a wide variety of foods, to make sure that I am getting all of the possible nutrients that I can. I recall reading once that the French have a low rate of heart disease, even though they eat what seem to be a lot of very fattening items such as sauces. The reason was that they ate such a wide variety of ingredients and this kept them healthy. Perhaps that is why so many people, myself included, don’t understand picky eaters. If you only like pasta, you are probably not going to lead a very healthy life, in the long run.
And it does seem that picky eater syndrome is primarily an american thing, which I find interesting. In a country where our citizens have access to such a wide variety of ingredients, enough to make many other places in the world quite jealous, there are those of us that lose out on what a rarity and a gift that is.
Personally, I will try anything multiple times before I determine whether I like it or not. For some foods, it has literally taken years to develop an appreciation for them, but worth every minute. Some of my most beloved foods are things that I hated the first few times around. I also think that upbringing has a lot to do with it. I have a friend who loves the flavor of seafood but not the texture. He always tells me that he wishes he had had more opportunities to eat it as a kid but his mom hated seafood and therefore he never became accustomed to the texture.
I think a lot of this has to do with what we are exposed to at a young age. In my case, my parents always made a variety of healthy foods and always took pleasure in trying new things. I saw their enthusiasm and it rubbed off. I think that is why it peeves me when parents let their children only have what they want. It’s a neverending cycle that follows them into adulthood and instead of having a healthy, well-rounded diet, they live off of tater tots, macaroni and cheese, and soda.
