This thread is the result of an exchange in the Liberals More Intelligent? thread. I hadn’t contributed to the thread, but I saw a statement by december that caught my eye. Several statements, actually, but you can read them in that thread. I will follow with the exchanges from that thread that prompted this one. I am not particularly interesting in defending or attacking the Federal role in education, personally. I do, however, want to see december’s evidence for his statements and how it reconciles with what he originally said.
(I will also note, for the record, that noted liberal George W. Bush is all over the Dept. of Education like white on rice, seeking to increase both spending as well as the role played by mandating nationwide testing of school students.)
Here are the exchanges:
december:
pldennison:
december:
pldennison:
So, I’d like to see december’s evidence, and to hear everyone else’s thoughts on the above exchange and how Federal involvement has affected public education.
As I said, “some evidence” of federal efforts harming education is that since the Feds expanded their role in the 1960’s, SAT scores have gone down and reading ability has worsened among the poor (a group the Feds focused on.)
I’m not sure how one provides evidence of “little or no evidence.” Let me leave it as a challenge to pl and his/her allies: Do you have evidence that federal involvement did improve education?
As I said, I am not particularly decided one way or the other concerning the DoE’s effects on education, so to refer to me and my allies is nothing but obfuscation.
Your original assertion was that “The Feds said they would improve education, but SAT scores went down.” I provided several reasons why a) scores may have gone down without education having suffered, and b) one may have nothing to do with the other, anyway.
You have yet to address any of those points, instead simply restating your own assertion as its own evidence. (“The Feds said they would improve education, but SAT scores went down.” “What’s the evidence that the two are connected or meaningful?” “Well, since the Feds expanded their role in education, SAT scores went down.”) That’s a textbook example of circular logic.
If you don’t have any evidence, just say so. I know its embarrassing–I’ve had to cop to talking out of my ass in many a thread. But you don’t just make an assertion, offer no evidence, then challenge those who disagree with you to prove you’re wrong. Not in a debate, and certainly not at the Straight Dope.
Based on your #2, do you agree with me that “there is little or no evidence that the Feds have improved education”?
If you do agree that Federal aid to education has no proven value, do you neverthess support continuing or expanding it? If so, why?
There’s a difference between a “lack of evidence” and evidence you don’t like (which you incorrectly called “dissimulation” in another post.) Yes, it’s conceivable that the drop in SATs could have been caused by expansion in the group of test-takers, but you didn’t try to demonstrate that this is the case. In fact, IIRC it has been shown that there was a real drop, independent of expansion.
I agree that cause and effect aren’t proved here. There are too many other things going on.
pl. You’ve argued that my evidence isn’t conclusive. I agree. Now I think it’s your turn to provide evidence the other way. Can you demonstrate that federal involvement has improved education? Can you even demonstrate that it hasn’t harmed education?
I haven’t argued that your evidence isn’t conclusive; au contraire, I’ve argued that you haven’t offered any bloody evidence. Nothing, except for constantly restating your premise.
Again, the conversation has gone thus:
YOU–Federal government was supposed to improve education, but SAT scores have dropped.
ME–What’s the evidence that the two are connected?
YOU–The evidence is that the Federal government expanded their role in education, but SAT scores dropped.
You have not offered a single bit of evidence aside from your own assertion. I can only conclude that you have absolutely no concept of how to properly present and defend an argument. And yet you have the audacity to ask me to present evidence contrary to your assertion?
When you get a new shtick or actually have something to add, let me know.
That line caught my eye. december the onus of proof is on you to provide some evidence that federal aid is not working.
Also theres the fact that your statement is over a specific period of time. I’ve always heard that SAT scores have been rising for the last twenty years. Though its not contradictory to your statistic it leads me to the opposite conclusion.
I agree that the whole SAT score thing is a red herring.
I have wondered about Federal involvement in K-12 education. It isn’t clear to me what their involvement actually consists of. Whatever they’re doing, is it doing any good? I’m doubtful.
Any educators out there with an opinion? Public school teachers / administrators? School board members? Are the Feds helping you? Or is their involvement something you feel your school would be better off without?
This is not quite the source you’ve been waiting for, but for what it’s worth I’m posting a link to a special issue from The Nation on race and education. It’s a roundtable discussion between various teachers and they are speaking frankly about what they think is wrong. december will see that several of them talk about teachers’ responsibility in quite serious terms. At the bottom of the article there are other links including one to the US Dept. of Education (where I haven’t surfed).
I don’t think you’re going to be able to empirically validate the impact of federal involvement in education b/c, as several posters have said, there are too many variables. I also think you need to clarify what you’re asking. Some of the federal involvement comes in the form of money. Are you questioning whether there isn’t a way for money to be used in education effectively? My guess is not. So are you questioning a specific way of using money, targeted bureaucratically through some program? Fair enough, describe the program and explain why it isn’t working.
For myself, I see great need for the federal government to spend more on education at every level because of the world that we live in today; but I would, of course, be concerned about how that money is used. As I understand it, neither Bush nor Gore was talking about spending more on education per capita. In other words, their increases were entirely absorbed by increased population. The Gore plan amounted more or less to the same level of funding adjusted to the population increase; the Bush “increase” was less than that.
Federal money helps to offset inequalities in schooling; since schooling is often funded out of property taxes well-off neighborhoods have better schools than poorer neighborhoods. It’s not easy to address a problem like that; redressing serious inequalities, especially on racial lines, never is easy. But that doesn’t mean that a democratic society like ours doesn’t have the responsibility to try. What could be more important that educating citizens? And if that sounds like rhetoric to you, then consider how little you actually believe in democracy.
Almost everyone in education agrees that the single most important factor is student/teacher ratio. In The Nation article, one of the speakers asks for a ration of 20 to 1 in elementary schools. What about a partly federally funded pilot program to give that a try in 200 schools nationwide. (I speak naively here: perhaps such a program has been tried but I suspect not as it isn’t mentioned).
People on the sidelines are always looking for quick fixes in education: privatization, etc. Insiders always appear to be asking for more money. The truth is that raising and educating children is time-consuming and hard, as every parent knows. It’s good for people to be vigilant and critical; but be serious about your criticism. How much of a result to you expect in an underprivileged classroom that is also overcrowded and lacking in facilities? What miracles would you perform there if you were a teacher? And how (for those who advocate this silver bullet) would a private for-profit system provide answers?
Personally, I’ve seen data that Head Start programs work and I think that taxpayers therefore get their money’s worth out of it. So it pisses me off to see that program still not offered to all children eligible–a situation likely to worsen as a result of the tax cut. Indeed, I’m at a loss to explain how it can possibly be.
[li]“As measured by the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests administered over the past two decades, high schoolers’ reading scores have climbed only one point, from 286 to 287 out of 500; writing scores fell from 290 to 283; and mathematics scores rose slightly from 299 to 307. All told, American taxpayers have pumped $550 billion through the department for no tangible benefit.” — The Department of Education: An Anti-Celebration[/li]
[li]“From 1980 to 1999, the price tag for a public school education adjusted for inflation rose from roughly $5,000 to $8,000 per child, an increase of 60 percent. During the same period, student scores on a range of tests remained flat or increased by a paltry one or two percentage points. Even with the modest increases, ACT and SAT scores are still significantly lower than they were 10 years before the Department of Education was established, when spending was only $4,200 per pupil.” — Ibid[/li]
[li]"[Since] 1990 nearly 100 public and private scholarship programs have given children from low-income families the chance to trade in their government education for a private one, resulting in significant, measurable gains on achievement tests… A Harvard University study of Parents Advancing Choice in Education, a private program in Dayton, Ohio, investigated parental satisfaction on a wide range of matters including student respect for teachers, teacher respect for students, teacher communication with parents, moral values, safety, discipline and academic quality. On every measure, these parents were more satisfied than parents of students in government schools." — Ibid[/li]
[li]"Twenty years after its founding, what has the Department of Education achieved? Although its advocates promised that a cabinet-level department would be leaner and less expensive than the previous federal education programs scattered through many agencies, the department’s budget has continually increased, from $14.5 billion to $34.7 billion. — Cato Handbook for Congress, 2000[/li]
[li]“A survey released in the fall of 1995 found that U.S. students are woefully ignorant of American history. Results of the 1994 National Assessment of Educational Progress showed that 57 percent of high school seniors scored below the ‘‘basic’’ level of history achievement. To achieve the ‘‘basic’’ level, students had to answer only 42 percent of the questions correctly.” — Ibid[/li]
[li]“Under the department’s watch, the American education system has continued to slouch toward utter failure. Test scores show that one out of three fourth graders can’t read. A significant achievement gap between the races still exists. Meanwhile, a recent audit of the department’s records found that nearly a half billion dollars of taxpayer funds intended to support education were either stolen or ‘missing.’” — Reagan’s ABCs[/li]
[li]“The Education Department mismanaged at least $450 million as the agency failed three consecutive audits during the final three years of the Clinton administration, the agency’s inspector general told a House subcommittee yesterday, according to The Washington Post. Inspector General Lorraine Lewis told the Select Education subcommittee that the department routinely misappropriated money through duplicate and other improper payments because of a range of long-standing fiscal oversight problems. In many cases, the lost money was recovered but, she added, the agency’s poor fiscal controls mean that the full scope of the problem is not known.” — The Cato Daily Dispatch, April 4, 2001[/li]
And this from Congress Trashes Local Control of Schools, June 23, 2001:
Testing scores is probably the worst way to measure improvement of eductaion, as most actual educators (as opposed to administrators) will tell you.
Let’s also note that there is no evidence that test scores wouldn’t have dropped even more, were it not for federal funding. Or if there is, you haven’t provided it.
Also, making a lot of links from the same cite look different, well…
Libertarian, The Cato Institute–just for those who don’t know it–is a far rightwing think tank. It would, perhaps, be too prejudicial to say that the Cato Institute is in the business of publishing fabrications; but they are in the business, as you will see, of cooking numbers and putting on a rightwing spin on everything, particular on questions of government policy. Here are just a few problems with the link you provided.
According to the link’s hyperbolic rhetoric, “Vice President Al Gore would saturate the department with $115 billion in new spending” and “Bush would increase spending less than Gore, but would have Washington’s bureaucrats dictate everything from achievement tests to core curriculum.” Reality check: Al Gore’s “saturation” would have raised education spending to adjust for the growth in population: i.e. spending per student would have remained constant under the Gore plan. Bush’s plan doesn’t even do that; so that, in effect, government spending on each child will continue to be less than in the past. Notice too that the Cato Institute is even to right of George Bush on this issue, arguing that government spending on education should be eliminated entirely.
Myrr21 has already suggested that test scores are hardly the only or the best way to measure achievement. Let’s, however, assume for argument’s sake that it was. According to Cato’s own data test scores have remained flat or have risen by a few points between 1980 and 1999. Since that was precisely the period during which economic condition of the bottom 10% worsened, one could easily argue that education (including government spending on education) has helped to offset what would otherwise be a decline in testing as a result of rising inequality.
(Note: for information on rising inequality see the Pit thread on “Tax Rebates”)
Based on this data alone, Cato then jumps to this outlandish conclusion: “If money could solve the problems of American schools, surely it would have begun to do so by now.”
Really? Since student/teacher ratio has been proven in study after study to be the single most important factor in increasing educational effectiveness, I think it’s a bit too soon to conclude that money doesn’t matter. Indeed, I’m willing to bet that if I had an unlimited pool of money to lavish on the education of any single individual–let’s say december–I could not only increase his test scores but teach him how to conduct a rational argument on a message board ;).
Seriously, isn’t it strange how the same people who are ready to conclude that money spent in education doesn’t matter also send their kids to expensive private schools and will choose a six-figure education at Yale over the local community college any day of the week? Perhaps what they’re really saying is that money does matter a great deal; so long as the money is spent on themselves or their kids rather than someone else’s.
Here’s another “fact” from Cato: “From 1980 to 1999, the price tag for a public school education adjusted for
inflation rose from roughly $5,000 to $8,000 per child, an increase of 60 percent.”
Really, where? Here I am in 2001 (the Cato article was written last year), and I know for a fact that in the large and prosperous city I live in spending per student is just over $7,000.
Here, in contrast, is an excerpt from an essay written by a Berkeley economics professor in 1995:
"The per-worker wealth of the nation has grown by twenty-two percent since 1969… If we spent the same share of our economic resources on primary and secondary education today as we as a nation spent in 1969, we would be spending some $7,100 a year per pupil on education. Instead, in California we spend what? $4,840–a rich state spending sixteen percent below the national average, and only two-thirds of what we “should” be spending if primary and secondary education got the same share of our national resources now as they did then.
Putting aside the importance of the argument he is making, what is clear is that Cato is wrong again: for California is seen to spending less on education in 1995 than Cato claims all public schools were spending in 1980.
Clearly Cato has found some way to cook it’s numbers and come up with misleading figures.
Cato’s solution is to privatize education. What’s their evidence that private schools will have better results?
“…since 1990 nearly 100 public and private scholarship programs have given children from low-income families the chance to trade in their government education for a private one, resulting in significant, measurable gains on achievement tests.”
“Signifcant”? “Measurable”? Figures to back this up? Zip. Moreover, as everyone knows, public schools, unlike private schools, cannot selectively admit certain children and exclude others. As a result public schools devote a lot of resources to meeting the special needs of students that private schools are free to reject. In addition, many private schools spend more per student than do public schools. Did these 100 private schools admit students with special needs? Did they spend more per student to achieve their mysterious but “significant” results? Thanks to Cato’s obfuscations, we will never know.
Please Libertarian, the average decent post on the SDMB has more hard evidence to back it up than this flimsy electronic puff piece from the Cato Institute. If I were you I’d have been embarassed to post it without serious disclaimers as it’s thinness of evidence. It hardly even qualifies as an Op Ed.
december, I’m afraid, therefore, that your opponents haven’t yett been vanquished. You’re going to have to work a little bit harder before you can gloat. While you’re at it you can start by answering my replies to your assertions about tenure and government employment in the Pit thread. Or is that a tennis match you’d prefer to forfeit?
The bottom line is that Mandelstam offered no evidence to contradict the Cato Institute nor did s/he offer any evidence that federal aid to educaton has ever done any good. Instead, we see a sprinkling of personal opinions a sprinkling of non-sequitors, and a sprinkling of insults. E.g.
*Originally posted by Mandelstam *
**The Cato Institute is a far rightwing think tank… publishing fabrications…; cooking numbers… and putting on a rightwing spin **
Following this list of insults, Mandelstam diputes some Cato statements (most of which are irrelevant to this thread) but provides no evidence and no cites to dispute Cato’s alleged errors.
According to Cato’s own data test scores have remained flat or have risen by a few points between 1980 and 1999. Since that was precisely the period during which economic condition of the bottom 10% worsened, one could easily argue that education (including government spending on education) has helped to offset what would otherwise be a decline in testing as a result of rising inequality.
Actually, there was improvement in the economic condition of ALL segments of society during that period (although the rich improved more than the poor), so this argument (aside from being pure speculation) doesn’t even make sense.
Since student/teacher ratio has been proven in study after study to be the single most important factor in increasing educational effectiveness, I think it’s a bit too soon to conclude that money doesn’t matter. Indeed, I’m willing to bet that if I had an unlimited pool of money to lavish on the education of any single individual–let’s say december–I could not only increase his test scores but teach him how to conduct a rational argument on a message board ;).
An insult made nice with a smiley. In fact, the feds spent over half a trillion dollars. This comes pretty close to “an unlimited pool of money.” And, if 30 years is “too soon to conclude…,” then how much more time is required? How many more generations of poor people are you liberals willing to condemn to illiteracy?
…isn’t it strange how the same people who are ready to conclude that money spent in education doesn’t matter also send their kids to expensive private schools
We conservatives want the poor to benefit by having private schools available to them; we support vouchers. * Why do you liberals force the poor to remain in failing schools?*
Here’s another “fact” from Cato: "From 1980 to 1999, the price tag for a public school education adjusted for
inflation rose from roughly $5,000 to $8,000 per child, an increase of 60 percent."
In a non-sequitor, Mandelstam argues that Cato is lying because their nationwide figures don’t match the numbers from his city and state (with no cites, BTW). Amusingly, his next quote actually explains the discrepancy: “…in California …–a rich state spending sixteen percent below the national average…” So, California’s per-student average of $7,000 and a national average of $8,000 are consistent.
Another meaningless statistic is that “The per-worker wealth of the nation has grown faster than per student spending in California since 1969.” Nevertheless, more money was spent (inreal terms) and education didn’t improve.
Clearly Cato has found some way to cook it’s numbers and come up with misleading figures.
“Clearly” is what one says when evidence is lacking.
**Cato’s solution is to privatize education. What’s their evidence that private schools will have better results?
“…since 1990 nearly 100 public and private scholarship programs have given children from low-income families the chance to trade in their government education for a private one, resulting in significant, measurable gains on achievement tests.”
“Signifcant”? “Measurable”? Figures to back this up? Zip. **
Actually there are lots of figures to back this up. However, the virtues and vices of privatization is a different topic.
Please Libertarian, the average decent post on the SDMB has more hard evidence to back it up than this flimsy electronic puff piece from the Cato Institute. If I were you I’d have been embarassed to post it without serious disclaimers as it’s thinness of evidence. It hardly even qualifies as an Op Ed.
More insults (“lack of hard evidence” “flimsy” “thinness of evidence” “embarassed”) from a poster who has offered no evidence at all.
This final paragraph has nailed down the prestigeous…
*Originally posted by Myrr21 * Testing scores is probably the worst way to measure improvement of education, as most actual educators (as opposed to administrators) will tell you.
Winston Churchill
I assume Myrr’s statement is a parallel to Churchill’s. Other than testing, how else could one measure improvement in education?
Let’s also note that there is no evidence that test scores wouldn’t have dropped even more, were it not for federal funding. Or if there is, you haven’t provided it.
I doubt even the people at the Cato Institute would deny how far right they are; I think they actually like it!
As to the condition of the poor, according to MIT economist Paul Krugman, (cited in the Tax Rebates thread as you were told, as you yourself have seen since you’ve posted there), **"[T]he standard of living of the poorest 10 percent of American families is significantly lower today than it was a generation ago, families in the middle are, at best, slightly better off. Only the wealthiest 20 percent of Americans have achieved income growth anything like the rates nearly everyone experienced between the 40’s and early 70s" ** [link available on Tax Rebates thread].
It’s true that more recent data shows some very slight gains in standard of living for this group as compared to the rest of the period since 1981. But a) Cato was speaking of 1999 not of 2001 and b) these recent gains reflect the end of a trend towards declining living standards; not a positive gain since the Reagan years. Conclusion: you’re dead wrong about the facts as to rising inequality; you haven’t posted anything on the subject; I have and did only you were too lazy to check the other thread.
You write: "In fact, the feds spent over half a trillion dollars. This comes pretty close to “an unlimited pool of money.”
An unlimited amount of money? Do you realize that we’re talking about the entire child population of the United States? Even according to Cato’s inflated figures the national figure is $8,000/child - and only 6% of that is being provided by the federal goverment. You’re wildly exaggerating.
You continue: “And, if 30 years is “too soon to conclude…,” then how much more time is required? How many more generations of poor people are you liberals willing to condemn to illiteracy?”
Too soon to conclude what? That government spending hasn’t completely eliminated illiteracy? That test scores during a time of declining standards of living should have done better than hold steady or slightly improve? What miracles are you hoping for?
As I said above, I’m all for improving education; I’m not against decentralizing; I’m not against all kinds of reforms, including those that would give us more bang for our federal education buck. Talk to me about specifics and I’m willing to listen.
What I am against (along with the majority of Americans and even many Republicans) is the kind of specious and extremist argument offered by Cato. Their arguments is basically this: we can show that federal spending to the tune of 6% of total educational spending has not performed miracles nationwide; therefore it’s time to eliminate all federal spending. No wonder that compared to this, Bush himself sounds moderate.
You write: “…Mandelstam argues that Cato is lying because their nationwide figures don’t match the numbers from his city and state (with no cites, BTW).”
<sigh> I don’t want to tell you what city I live in. I have my reasons. Please take my word for it. The figure is about $7,800 per student as of 2000. Cato claims (without even stating that it’s an average or median figure) that public school education’s “pricetag” rose to $8,000 by 1999. It just doesn’t tally. (By the way, I’m a woman.)
"Amusingly, [her] next quote actually explains the discrepancy: “…in California …–a rich state spending sixteen percent below the national average…” So, California’s per-student average of $7,000 and a national average of $8,000 are consistent. "
Amusingly, you’ve demonstrated that you can’t read. Brad DeLong is saying (in 1995) that California should spend $7,100. In actuality, he writes, they’re spending less than 5,000: or less in 1995 than Cato claims that all schools were already spending in 1980! Once again: Cato is clearly using some sort of cooked up figure. They don’t say how they’ve drummed it up; I don’t claim to know. If you want to find out, why don’t you do some research yourself. Why you can’t understand simple English is another matter. It’s not that you’re dumb; but you seem to get yourself so worked up that you won’t clearly consider what is presented to you.
You write: “Another meaningless statistic is that “The per-worker wealth of the nation has grown faster than per student spending in California since 1969.” Nevertheless, more money was spent (inreal terms) and education didn’t improve”
Here, december, you are arguing with a prize-winning Berkely economist about what is and isn’t a meaningful statistic. Have you so much as clicked on the link and checked out this man’s website to see the stature and achievements of the person you are dismissing?
De Long is providing a proportional statistic and you are providing an absolute one. Let’s get this straight. So if the december family grew since 1969 from 2 members to 8 members would you refuse to spend as much proportionately on, say, food, healthcare, education, and entertainment per family member? Would you, in other words, reduce each family member’s spending on these things for the simple reason that you detest increase? Because that’s what you’re asking the government to do: to reduce the amount spent per child on education as the size of the population increases. Isn’t that a little screwy?
I noticed that Cato hasn’t provided any of its “substantial” measurements of improvement on private vs. public school. You replied, “Actually there are lots of figures to back this up.” So where are they?
I ask about whether the schools in question are selecting certain students and excluding others (most private schools do) and I ask if they are spending the same or more than public schools. You don’t reply at all.
I’m truly sorry, december. I’m going to say right now that I will not answer another post from you in which you flail around, evading some questions, misrepresenting others, avoiding links that have been posted or referred to, misinterpreting information that is as plain as day. I simply don’t have time to waste; and I’ve already wasted time replying to you on the subject of tenure and government employment in the Pit thread. Unless you show, shall we say, “significant” and “measurable” improvement in your ability to argue rationally, I’m going to ignore you and your posts from now on.
However much I may disagree with him, I can with someone like Sam Stone who is putting some thought into his posts and doing some homework. But your posts are, as I see it, a waste of time for me to answer.
Some highlights from a 1995 report intended to redress the perception (a la the Cato links) that public education has been woefully inefficient.
The total real spending increase (adjusted for inflation) between 1967 and 1991 is 61%. (Of course, this figure doesn’t at all take into account the kind of argument DeLong was making about a relative decline in spending relative to per-worker wealth during roughly the same period).
While 61% still seems considerable, the interesting fact is this:
"A detailed examination of expenditures in nine typical U.S. school districts shows that the share of expenditures going to regular education dropped from 80% to 59% between 1967 and 1991, while the share going to special education climbed from 4% to 17%. Of the net new money spent on education in 1991, only 26% went to improve regular education, while about 38% went to special education for severely handicapped and learning-disabled children. Per pupil expenditures for regular education grew by only 28% during this quarter century–an average annual rate of about 1%."
The basic thrust of the Report, therefore, is this:
“Recent research on academic achievement suggests that outcomes in regular education programs have been stable or have grown modestly, and that outcomes for minority students have improved over the last quarter century. This
report does not address the validity of that conclusion, but rather shows that regular education spending also has increased modestly. We do not claim that further spending increases will generate outcome improvements, nor do we argue that school reform is not important. Our findings suggest only that reforms are not likely to be well-designed if reformers, failing to examine the varied rates of spending growth in education’s many programs, assume an unproven collapse in school productivity.”
Also important was this:
“The growth of regular education spending was more marked in suburban than in urban districts. In the urban districts studied, per pupil regular education spending grew hardly at all, and might have declined in real terms if the districts had not cut back on operations, maintenance, and general administration spending. But in some suburban districts, regular education resources grew substantially.”
These same urban schools, of course, are the ones typically singled out to demonstrate the need for eliminating government spending on education, or privatizing education entirely.
This is another fairly sober article from The Nation which, much like the one I posted above, suggests no easy answers to the problem of redressing inequalities in education.
Again, lest my disdain for Cato exaggeration and extremism seem to suggest otherwise, I think a lot of attention is needed; and not just more money for poor and urban schools.
I forgot to point out (though anyone who’s been reading the thread from the start is already paying attention to this difference) that the increases described in this report reflect total public school spending, not the small (6-7% of total spending) that comes from the federal government.
The Harvard study, cited by Cato, measured “a wide range of matters including student respect for teachers, teacher respect for students, teacher communication with parents, moral values, safety, discipline and academic quality” in privately and locally funded schools. Their findings were that “these parents were more satisfied than parents of students in government schools”. If something other than test scores and academic quality, as well as parent, teacher, and student satisfaction are better measures of improvements of education, you haven’t specified what it is.
I have provided that evidence in the alternate universe where there has not been any federal funding. That’s the universe where it’s okay to deny the antecedent.
Quite likely, most readers did not miss the first line of the post: “Some Department Of Education observations from the Cato Institute.” I doubt you missed it either. The links are merely the titles of the articles. I think most readers understood that. I think you did, too.
Also, reaching in a debate for such bizarre accusations, well…
Mandelstam
Apparently, the one who doesn’t know is you. The Cato Institute is a libertarian think tank.
Among other things, they advocate:
[li] The repeal of all laws of prohibition, including legalizing drugs.[/li]
[li] The repeal of all laws against adult consentual sex, including sodomy.[/li]
[li] The opening of borders to allow free immigration.[/li]
[li] The elimination of corporate welfare, including farm industry subsidies.[/li]
[li] Government noninterference in consent to private contracts, including marriage among gays and lesbians.[/li]
Do those sound like positions held by Jesse Helms?
Well, perhaps if they could find the nearly five-hundred million dollars for which they cannot account, they could hire some more teachers. Besides, this crap has gone on even longer than the War On Americans I Mean Drugs. Only the War On Poor People I Mean Poverty has lasted longer.