We’ve had several Christians post on this topic, and each one of them has a slightly different view of what Jesus was. I don’t think that there really is any meaningful explanation of Christianity; one of the reasons it’s survived so well is that it’s so vaguely worded that anytime an objection against a particular interpretation is made, apologists insist that the critic is arguing against a misinterpretation of doctrine; he just “doesn’t understand what Christianity really is”.
John W. Kennedy
Member posted 08-31-1999 11:04 AM
Perhaps, to you, there is a clear difference between “person” and “being”, but there isn’t for most people. And even those that do recognize a difference don’t necessarily recognize the same difference as you do. I guess what I’m saying is that even if someone believes in each of your points *as they interpret them*, they don’t necessarily have the same beliefs as you. And isn’t it kind of strange to be in a religion in which you can’t be sure that it means the same thing to other people of the same religion?
Paddy the Irish Mexican
Member posted 08-31-1999 12:31 PM
In response to Ahunter3:
I didn’t see anything “bashing” Christianity, except for the quite reasonable point that many people who claim to believe in Christianity, a religion that teaches that Jesus was one of us, still don’t really believe that Jesus was one of us. You might not agree with some of the theology presented, but interpreting theology contrary to that which you believe as “bashing” is hardly a good method for convincing people that “most Christians are more fair-minded than their critics say they are.”
moriah
Member posted 08-31-1999 02:49 PM
Are you a Christian? If so, I can’t understand how you can believe that. According to every version of Christianity I’ve heard, it is impossible to be free from sin without Jesus’ help. No one can simply choose to avoid sin; they need Jesus to save them from it. Certainly sounds like sin in an inherent part of humanity to me. And if every normal human needs the help of a higher power to be "saved", but Jesus doesn't, isn't that a pretty significant difference?
-Ryan
" ‘Ideas on Earth were badges of friendship or enmity. Their content did not matter.’ " -Kurt Vonnegut, * Breakfast of Champions *
If you mean the phrase ‘Holy Trinity’ or even the word ‘Trinity’ or the full understanding of the Trinity that was expressed in any of the ecumenical councils, then you won’t find the Trinity in the Bible at all. However, we do have in Matthew 28:19,
And please don’t make me pull up all the quotes from the Gospel of John where Jesus equates himself with the Father and the Spirit with himself. {“The Word was God…the Word became flesh”)
Also keep in mind that orthodox Christianity is more than just the Scriptures. Even Lutheran theologians will agree with that.
Well, this may be circular logic, but orthodox Christian belief is that Jesus was fully human, and that Jesus was without sin. So, in Jesus, we have an example of sinless human. So yes, someone can be human and sinless – Jesus.
Also considere that before Adam and Eve sinned, they were sinless humans. Again, a biblical ‘proof’ (as historically non-critical as it may be) that there can be a sinless human.
The distinction for the rest of humanity is a theoretical one. Our human nature is weakened by ‘original sin’ (not an actual sin, though); and, according to Paul, “we all sin” (eventually – babies certainly don’t).
And yes, we all rely on God to save us since we can’t save ourselves (not even pre-Fall Adam or innocent babies). So even the theoretical sinless human would need saving, even if there was no sin. Jesus, having the advantage of being God and human, was the exception who could save his own humanity (but not from sin, though, since he had none – but it still needed to be saved from permanent death), and thus, all other (worthy and/or repentant) humans.
What I get out of this quote from the Bible is Jesus telling people what to say when they baptize someone. Not that, he is the father, the son, and the holy ghost. And wasn’t it the Bible that quote’s Jesus as saying, “Father, why has thou forsaken me?”. It seems here he is clearly making a difference between himself and his father.
moriah also writes:
Well I don’t need saving, so I don’t need any gods’ to save me either.=Brother Haus says politely=
For some reason my computer is not allowing me to copy and paste, much less to use my all-powerful moderator tools. Some posters here have expressed concern that this thread not get “dumped” in General Questions, Great Debates, or the Mundane forum. This topic referred to was in “Classic Threads,” not a Straight Dope column, so this is not the appropriate forum for it. I have asked Tubadiva to lock and/or move it.
Jill
At the risk of bumping this yet again… was this not closed and transfered to Great Debates? Is it not, then, languishing in the files of GD (where it belongs)? Do we have to leave it here?
{“The Word was God…the Word became flesh”)