What If I am Actually right? [movements of poles]

[twickster]

@N8N8N8N

Dislcaimer: I did n’t write the stuff below its clear concsie no spelling, grammar or puntuation errors
unlike the verbal diarea diaareea diareea…Shit I write. For me to take this or anyother piece of work and rewrite it, that would be a copyright violation. to butcher some elses work like that.

[deleted cut and pasted material]

http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/narratives/ALASKA.htm

Cutting and pasting someone else’s material is an even bigger copyright violation. Provide a link to the source.

Don’t do this.

twickster, SDMB mod

[N8N8N8N]

@Lemur866

No, that is not what I am suggesting.

I’m suggesting that one day, at the start of the ice age, there were no ice caps. Then it snowed really hard one winter, and that summer was colder than usual. And during the summer, not all the snow melted. The next winter it snowed again, and the next summer it was cold again, so not only did the snowfall of the previous year not completely melt, the snowfall from this year did not completely melt. And so we have two summers where it was warmer than winter, but not cold enough to completely melt the snow.

See, it wasn’t like it wasn’t warm in the summer, just not warm enough to melt ALL the snow. If even a little bit remains unmelted through the summer, that little bit accumulates and accumulates year by year.

That’s how you get 3 mile thick ice sheets. Not because it snows and snows and never ever melts. Rather because it snows a bit in winter and melts a bit in summer, but it never quite completely melts in summer.

And then you get years that are much warmer, and the mile thick ice sheet is gone. But note that even when the ice sheet is melting, there is still winter, it still snows in winter, and the ice sheet accumulates in winter. But the next summer, the snow that fell that winter melts, plus ice that accumulated possibly thousands of years ago.

This is how, at Barrow Alaska, there is no permanent ice sheet. It’s not permanently summer there–Barrow is frozen solid for 8 months out of the year. It’s just that every summer, the sun manages to melt the accumulated snowpack before the next winter. And meanwhile, over in Greenland at the same temperatures and lattitude, there is a permanent ice cap a mile thick. This isn’t because the top layer of ice never melts. IT DOES. Just not very much.

Of course, the Greenland ice sheet is retreating, so right now every summer the Greenland ice sheet melts a little bit more than it accumulates in winter. But it’s not permanent summer or permanent winter that causes ice sheets to advance or retreat.

Yes then your right if you have seasons the snow will melt but the idea of an ice age is that the temperature high never goes above freezing. SO if Alaska had seasons and hence no icecaps and Europe did have ice caps 3 miles thick what does that tell you? Europe no seasons just freezing all year long Alaska seasons?

[N8N8N8N]

@Twoflower

Indeed. As was pointed out way back at the top of the thread, if you were right, there would be obvious astronomical changes, like a change in the position of the sun in the sky, that no one would fail to notice. Those changes have not been observed; therefore your theory is wrong.

No amount of arguing about climatology will make the lack of astronomical observations go away; those arguments cannot somehow make you right. They do seem to be making you more and more wrong, though.

If you’re going to claim to be successfully self-educated, you really need to do a better job of understanding basic evidence and logic.

Wonder why they are making a thirteenth astrological sign?

[N8N8N8N]

@Gyrate

“Junior modding” is someone acting in the capacity of a moderator who is not a moderator. So SeaDragonTattoo was acting like a “junior moderator” by calling you on a perceived rules violation when s/he doesn’t have the authority to do so.

The correct procedure, if you spot something which you think goes against the rules of the board, is to report it by clicking the little triangle warning icon in the relevant post, which will send a note to the (real) moderators who will look into it.

And I assume I’m not junior modding myself by explaining all that.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me. Why is quoting sombody not allowed? Like I can quote you but not sombody off here? Hardly makes sense. Must be some good reason for it I’m gurssing

[Twoflower]

@N8N8N8N

Wonder why they are making a thirteenth astrological sign?

Because some astronomer foolishly presumed that the ancients had not figured out the precession of the equinoxes or that they didn’t realize that the ecliptic has always passed through Ophiuchus. Utterly irrelevant to your theory.

[Muffin]

@N8N8N8N

Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me. Why is quoting sombody not allowed? Like I can quote you but not sombody off here? Hardly makes sense. Must be some good reason for it I’m gurssing

Quoting is not only allowed, it is encouraged to assist in proving one’s assertions and arguments, but just like many things, there is a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it.

Check out your local school system to see if it offers any upgrading programs.

[kaylasdad99]

@N8N8N8N

Yes then your right if you have seasons the snow will melt but the idea of an ice age is that the temperature high never goes above freezing.

This strikes me as overstated.

@N8N8N8N

SO if Alaska had seasons and hence no icecaps and Europe did have ice caps 3 miles thick what does that tell you? Europe no seasons just freezing all year long Alaska seasons?

No; seasons in both places, but with the additional factor of more snow in Europe than in Alaska. Enough more snow, that Europe shows a net increase in accumulated snow every year, but Alaska doesn’t.

[Lemur866]

@N8N8N8N

Yes then your right if you have seasons the snow will melt but the idea of an ice age is that the temperature high never goes above freezing. SO if Alaska had seasons and hence no icecaps and Europe did have ice caps 3 miles thick what does that tell you? Europe no seasons just freezing all year long Alaska seasons?

Why do you insist that the idea of an ice age is that the temperature never goes above freezing?

Because it just isn’t true.

OK, let me try to explain.

Suppose you’re sitting on top of a mile thick ice sheet during the Pleistocene. It’s the middle of winter. It’s 40 below. That’s too cold to snow, so not much is happening. As you sit there through the months, eventually it gets a bit warmer. It’s spring! It’s up to the 20s and 30s (all Temperatures in Fahrenheit here). At this temperature you get some snow. Not much, but a few inches. Then, along about August it gets even warmer. It’s 40 degrees! Wow. It’s summer! It’s above freezing! So what happens? A little bit of ice melts. Not much, it’s more like the top few inches of loose snow turns to slush. Then September rolls around, and it’s back to the 20s and 30s, and the thaw is over. The slush freezes solid. A little bit of snow falls again, just a few inches. Then winter sets in and it gets really cold again.

It doesn’t have to stay below 32F all year round to maintain an ice sheet. It doesn’t always stay below 32F all year in Greenland, or Antarctica, yet both Greenland and Antarctica today have a permanent ice cap.

If there were one day where it got above freezing, would that melt the ice cap? No, it wouldn’t, that’s obvious, it’s a huge ice cap and only one warm day would melt only a tiny amount. How about two days, or three days? Even then a few days above freezing isn’t enough to melt the ice.

But as we get more and more days above freezing, more and more ice melts every summer.

Obviously, the amount of warmth over the summer that you would need to completely melt all the ice and snow from the previous winter depends on how much snow you get in the winter. And as we have explained, if there is little snow it might all melt in the summer, even if the summer isn’t very warm. And if you get massive amounts of snow, it would take very warm summers to completely melt it all.

[N8N8N8N]

I’m not sure where you get the idea than an ice age has seasons just today in the antarctic with no ice age the temperatures at the extreme Seasonal average high and low are at permanently-manned South Pole station are -14 to -81C, and at Vostok -21 to -89C. This is now with the globa warming stage…

[Scuba_Ben]

I’m not sure where you get the idea that a glaciation period doesn’t have seasons.

[N8N8N8N]

@Scuba_Ben

I’m not sure where you get the idea that a glaciation period doesn’t have seasons.

I live in the arctic its just cold and colder you call it summer in the south we just called it day time.

[Lemur866]

@N8N8N8N

I live in the arctic its just cold and colder you call it summer in the south we just called it day time.

Where in the arctic do you live?

It is true that at the south pole it never gets above freezing, even at midsummer. But the south pole isn’t all of the Antarctic ice cap.

[SeaDragonTattoo]

There’s a NOVA online article that talks about us being in the midst of an ice age RIGHT NOW. It may be a “warming period” during this ice age, but we’re in one nonetheless.

[Scuba_Ben]

@N8N8N8N

I live in the arctic its just cold and colder you call it summer in the south we just called it day time.

That’s still a season.

[N8N8N8N]

@Scuba_Ben

That’s still a season.

I will not argue that point with you Ben. You bring up a valid point I never considered. I know what I mean by ice age but I’m not sure I know what you think an ice age is. So we need to figure out what we can agree what an ice age is. I am saying ice age meaning no rise in temperature above 0 C for 30,000 years. So the seasonal high cannot be over 0 C. So even in the midsummer the high temperature is never is above that.

[Gyrate]

@N8N8N8N

I will not argue that point with you Ben. You bring up a valid point I never considered. I know what I mean by ice age but I’m not sure I know what you think an ice age is. So we need to figure out what we can agree what an ice age is. I am saying ice age meaning no rise in temperature above 0 C for 30,000 years. So the seasonal high cannot be over 0 C. So even in the midsummer the high temperature is never is above that.

Several people in this thread, myself included, have already pointed out that this is wrong. It can get over freezing during an ice age summer; indeed, it can get well over freezing. You can still have snow on the ground on a warm day as long as it’s been cold and snowy for so long beforehand that there is so much snow that it can’t all melt during the warm periods.

[SeaDragonTattoo]

@N8N8N8N

I am saying ice age meaning no rise in temperature above 0 C for 30,000 years. So the seasonal high cannot be over 0 C. So even in the midsummer the high temperature is never is above that.

I agree with Gyrate your definition of an ice age has never happened.

Average temperatures tended to be around 0C during glaciation periods, meaning they were certainly above 0 and certainly below 0, but have never remained below zero for thousands of years at a time. The planet has always experienced seasons with yearly fluctuations in temperature. I can’t find any cites that define an ice age - glaciation period - by including only below zero temperatures.

[Scuba_Ben]

@N8N8N8N

I am saying ice age meaning no rise in temperature above 0 C for 30,000 years. So the seasonal high cannot be over 0 C. So even in the midsummer the high temperature is never is above that.

Ah, got it. You are using your own definition of “ice age,” not the normal definition.

You are also using your own definition of “summer” not the normal definition.

If this were another board, I’d be screaming Box! box! box!