I would say that the alarms go off once in every ten times that we shop at Wall-Mart (our average purchases are about $150.00 per week which includes groceries and other household goods). It’s embarrassing, and I always tell my wife that the only reason that I submit to “inspection” is because she is with me. My Business Law professor accused me of making this up (he said if it’s going off that much you must be stealing, we have our faults but being thieves are not included in the list). In any case what would happen if I basically said “to heck with this” and kept walking? Let’s say they sent security people out, and I still refused or just kept walking to my car ignoring them. I’m a big guy six foot three and 265 pounds. In addition, I received very good hand to hand combat training in the Navy (I was EOD). On top of that I have a concealed weapons permit and usually carry my Heckler and Koch P2000 9MM with me at all times. IF I resisted what would I be charged with assuming that I haven’t stolen anything (which I never have). If they “wreastled me inside” could I sue for defamation or false light? In other words how much “reasonable suspicsion” goes with these automated buzzers. I feel certain that it is less than that which correlates with actually witnessing someone stealing, but am not sure.
Y’know. It’s not that implausable. I once met this kid that set off the alarm at the mall all the time. He’d set it off walking in, and set it off walking out. They’ve searched him on multiple occasions. They’ve never found anything. They don’t really bother checking him much anymore. Either theres something just weird about him or he’s found the perfect way to steal from the mall – desensitizing the clerks.
I don’t shop at WalMart so I can’t tell you the policies there, but I do know some other places actually have rules not to chase the people out the door. Kmart used to have such a rule, but I don’t know if any K-Marts still exist.
The Targets around in Irvine, California don’t seem to care at all. I saw two young men walk out the door the other day, the alarm went off, the men stopped and waited by the entrance and no one came so after a while, the young men just shrugged and left. I would have done the same unless I saw that something that needed to be removed by security.
Then again, if you go to the Targets in the inner city of Los Angeles, you will notice security guards by all entrances/exits. I am sure the guards will ask you to stop and ask to examine your belongings.
at play:
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These machines work by the things that you buy being “desensitized” by the cashier when he/she checks them out. I think there is a certain intrinsic “error rate” in this process. Buy enough stuff (and $150.00 per week translates to a good deal of stuff) and you will have some errors.
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Certain products such as “razor blades” for these triple shavers seem to be more consistently marked. These are products that we buy frequently and thus there may be a certain self “selection bias present”.
The bottom line is that I think that they need to improve the “error rate” so that this occurs much less fequently. However, I’m not even sure that they would do anything if you kept walking it may be more of a matter of deterrence.
I understand (could be dead wrong) that they can’t stop you from going to your car. When someone does steal something, security meets them outside, steps in front of them, and essentially just asks them to come back inside the store. They can’t tackle you, or even force you back into the store.
The person that does steal something, and is caught on camera, but refuses to comply with security probably gets tracked down (or not) the old fashioned way – by the police.
In your case, you are not on camera stealing anything (since it didn’t happen). I think if you walk away they pretty much just have to shrug. If this happens three times (or whatever), they will probably start to watch you like a hawk whenever you are shopping. But, eh… Who Cares?
So you’re saying that you’d try to beat the shit out of the guards for questioning you? If this is your way of reasoning, you need to either, not steal and submit peacefully to any questions that security might ask you, or get a really good lawyer. Unless, of course, the security guards at the Wallmart (sic) near you come aout with fists flying. In which case, you should beat them soundly, or perhaps shoot them in the face.
If you’ve not stolen anything, then be a man and talk to them at least. They’ll see that you haven’t taken anything and will let you go. Or, you could murder them where they stand, with your HK.
BTW ava how’s Irvine these days?
Roland, please don’t shoot the Wal-Mart employees. Seriously. Their jobs are bad enough without you assaulting them.
Anyhoo, about your question. This page (warning: PDF!) gives information on the issue of whether the activation of a security alarm constitutes probable cause to stop someone. (answer: it does, as ruled in Lucas v. United States, 411 A.2d 360 (D.C. App. 1980). It’s on page 13.)
So, once they’ve decided to stop you, how can they do it? Well this dude discusses the necessary protocols for handling shoplifting suspects. He says
Holding force in this case means just enough to keep you from running off.
I’m not sure what, exactly, you could be charged with in this case. The people at the store are not likely to be police officers, so I don’t THINK you could be charged with resisting arrest, though that’s just a guess on my part. Assault and battery, possibly assault with a deadly weapon, considering how you said you planned to resist.
Summary: not a good idea.
Those things go off on my all the time. Video stores, Fred Meyer stores, pretty much everywhere I go.
I’ve never been approached by anyone after years of this happening. I used to stop and see if they wanted to check my bags, but I’ve stopped doing that. I just keep walking now. no one ever says anything. No one rushes to the door. Nothing.
If they DID want to search me I wouldn’t let them unless they insisted I stole something, could tell me what it was I stole and where it is on my person. I would allow the police to search my things if they pushed the issue. Of course they’d never find anything.
security personnel and only using force, if first met with force which would include an attempt to restrain. Technically, if someone touches someone in a purposeful, unwanted manner that is a battery (unless they are someone authorized by law to do so). I can’t believe this hasn’t happened already. It’s true that I have and have always had a pathological aversion to virtually all authority (which I rather enjoy seeing it as a badge of liberty, my wife would argue insanity). However, I’ve never been arrested, or been in a fight since Jr. high (boxing and karate don’t count since they are sport). Thus, it seems reasonable that if I have contemplated this reaction that others (less restrained) have actually acted upon their contemplations.
If the guard is cautious, he might radio police and follow you to your car to get your license plate number. In that case, you might find yourself pulled over down the road. Some guards do not mind getting into a tussle with a customer. Living in NYC, I’ve seen guards wrestle suspected shoplifters into a back office, etc., and sometimes an outright brawl will ensue. Usually the purloined goods are spilling from their clothing by that time, so they have nothing to lose by trying to get away.
You or your wife may have a stray security device somewhere on your person, maybe in a wallet or purse. If you only experience this problem at one store, their sensors may be set a tad too high. I had a similar problem at one particular store. I always set off their sensors. Finally, I decided to find the problem since I use the store on an almost daily basis. I stood there and repeatedly walked through the sensors leaving something else behind. We got the problem narrowed down to my purse. After emptying the purse, the purse still set off the sensors. What we finally found, way down tucked into a corner was a narrow tape strip with a wire stuck to it - they are used in paperback book bindings, but now and then, you’ll find one between pages of a book. After removing it, I no longer buzzed.
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Would it imply legal negligence on their part for having a system so easily subject to error? Obviously, you would have to suffer some sort of damages such as emotional distress.
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I think that if this explanation applied in our case that it would happen even more often. However, it seems to be about once every ten weeks. I am curious what the data is on the error rates of these devices as they are commonly deployed.
Again, please do remember that they would technically have the legal right to detain you and to search items in your possession if you set off the alarm, according to the legal decisions I’ve seen. While I personally would also make a big stink if I had to go through a real march-you-to-the-back search over nothing more than the alarm thingy, I would cooperate first and raise hell later. Not that I think this is likely, mind you. In my experience, as in yours, the usual reaction to the alarm going off is for an employee to look annoyed and hit the off switch.
Ahh, but it would seem that they ARE, in fact, legally authorized to do so as long as they have probable cause. (in this example, the alarm going off) They can’t slam you on the hood of the car and start whackin’ away with their Wal-Mart brand nightsticks, but it appears that they are allowed to use enough force to get you to come with them.
(Note: definitely NOT a lawyer here. I just google well, people, so back this up with your own research.)
And you were in the NAVY? 
this thread is as good as any of yours, I suppose, to point out how really irritating your starting your every post in the Title line is. The title line is optional.
So very true.
Most places know when their sensors are set too high and rarely stop and search people because of the alarm. However, I don’t know if negligence would apply if you just stop and show your receipt or whatever. The usual procedure is to pass you and your package(s) back through the sensors separately so as to discount the suspicion that you may have something tucked away on your person.
I carry a rather large shoulder bag (ok, it’s humungous and packed full of junk) which usually faces the same way. On the occasion when it faced opposite of usual, I did not buzz. Evidently at those times, the errant strip was blocked by my body on one side and the stuff in my purse on the other preventing the alarm from sounding.
In any case, the next time it happens, try to figure out if the trigger is in your shopping bags or on your person, then try to narrow it down from there.
Do many people carry concealed weapons where you live? I find this fascinating. Is there really so much crime that you need to arm yourself or do you do it just because you are allowed to? Personal questions I know, but you mentioned it so fair game. So anyway, don’t you think that if you are carrying a concealed pistol, the mall security-types may also be armed? I know around here, the mall security guards are cop-wannabes and would arm themselves to the teeth if they were allowed.
(btw - I used to keep a Winchester 1300 shotgun in my closet because I thought I’d feel safer but it actually made me feel worse. Made me way more paranoid in fact so I got rid of it and honestly feel much better now.)
Doesn’t the OP seem a bit… demonstrative. I mean I am very impressed by your size and your training and your 9 etc., but couldn’t you just post that info in a post in MPSIMS and simply ask, what can those pipsqueaks at wal mart do when the buzzer goes off?
I would think that if-- not that I doubt you or anything-- you had a concealed weapons permit YOU would be the one to answer a question about where and when you can unconceal said weapon. ( Ask the big man with the big gun.)
The alarm system isn’t necessarily the issue. Store employees are supposed to do what they can to deter shoplifting. Someone could stop you before you even got to the checkout line to inspect your bags. As to whether you have to submit to the search, or to multiple or repeated searches: your size, training or proximity to deadly weapons should not really have any bearing on your rights or the stores!
Maybe complaining to the store manager would be an option.
[small hijack] Oh, and do you think the gun itself might be setting off the alarm?[/small hijack]
Re OP’s posts are there are some detector buzzers starting to go off here, but they ain’t Walmart buzzers.