Pity that Roland and his ilk give your cause a black eye. Civilians that pack heat on a routine trip to the grocery store are either far too paranoid, or itchy to shoot someone since they “have the right”. Unfortunately, responsibility can’t be legislated.
Wait a second, I just realized that I forgot that one might have the need to end someone else’s life at any given moment, especially when shopping. Silly me, I thought CCW laws were for people that might need that sort of protection/privacy, I neglected to include insecure people with macho fetishes that might want to serruptitiously get an inflated ego. I should be more careful with armed sociopaths in the future.
here with regard to concealed carry on private property where it is prohibited. I think at worst it is a class “D” misdeameanor, but I could be wrong. I know that it took a special act of the state house in order to probibit those with CCW’s from taking their guns into court a few years ago.
My point with the security guard issue was not to use deadly force. Rather it was to proceed to my car without being stopped. The point would be to use whatever amount of force was necessary to secure that objective. However, I agree that on balance the more logical approach is to submit to the searches, and bring suit for false arrest against the store when it is shown that I haven’t taken any merchandise. By the way there was a girl kidnapped, raped, and then murdered a couple of years ago from this very same store. In addition, in the last year there have been three assaults reported to the police, one car-jacking, and eight vehicle theft reports. It’s not the most dangerous place in town, but it’s also not the safest. However, we are digressing into debate. My question has been answered those seeking to leave a Wall-Mart can under current law be detained by force (it appears) if they resist based solely on the probable cause provided by an automated security alarm.
Here’s a somewhat related phenomenon: I was at Circuit City recently, and when I walked in, there was a greeter-type guy standing by the door. He, of course, greeted me, and I went on to buy some electronics crap. The registers are right by the door, so I went up and purchased, then started to walk out. As I approached the door, the supposed greeter said “Sir, I just have to check your receipt.”. Now, I believe there was a thread here awhile back in which this was discussed, and the reality appears to be that they have no basis to detain you after you’ve completed your transaction. Anyway, I replied to him “No you don’t.” and simply kept walking. He called “Sir! Sir!” a couple times, but didn’t follow me. If he had, I would have told him he was not within his legal rights.
Costco does this on the way out, also, and its extremely annoying there because people buy such large quantities of stuff. While everyone’s waiting (in line!) to prove they haven’t stolen anything, I simply walk out. Quite pleasurable, actually.
I had bought an Arizona Diamondbacks jacket in 2000, and for the next couple of weeks, every time I walked through a store’s security system, it would go off, no matter if I had bought something or not. I always stopped, but every time, I’d get the go ahead to go through. It turns out that inside one of the pockets of the Diamondback jacket was another security sticker that not even the clerk at the store I bought it from was aware of. They didn’t have an anti-theft buzzer at this particular store, so I didn’t think to check for hidden security stickers. Anyhow, after a couple of weeks of triggering security systems,I went home, looked inside the pocket, found the sticker, and removed it. Since then, I’ve had no problems.
In Virginia, the law provides that the activation of a security alarm is conclusive in establishing probable cause. It’s thus irrelevant to argue the number of false positives such devices may generate.
Va. Code § 18.2-105.1. Detention of suspected shoplifter:
Va. Code § 18.2-105, Exemption from civil liability in connection with arrest or detention of suspected person:
Emphasis added.
However, there is case law that limits § 18.2-105 to cases that do not involve the tort being committed in a willful, wanton or otherwise unreasonable or excessive manner. In other words, “…provided such person is detained only in a reasonable manner …” means that the store must act reasonably. See, e.g., F.B.C. Stores, Inc. v. Duncan, 214 Va. 246, 198 S.E.2d 595 (1973); Jury v. Giant of Maryland, 259 Va. 622, 626, 528 S.E.2d 108, 111 (1997).
It is annoying, but it could be in the membership contract that you agree to allow them to do this. It certainly will be if too many smart-alecks try to end run them.
Hypothetically, if they saw what cashier you came from, you might find out the next time that your card doesn’t work any more.
I’m curious. Is there any provision in the VA laws for punishing shopkeepers who record an inordinate number of false positives, or whose machines are (incorrectly) calibrated so as to detect merchandise purchased elsewhere?
I remember a bookstore that i used to frequent, where any books that i was carrying (whether from the library, or purchased from another store) would set off this store’s alarm.
Personally, i think that if stores are going to use technology such as this, and are going to be allowed to detain people based on its operation, they should be legally required to take every possible precaution against inaccuate readings.
I know you were asking bricker but I wanted to chime in on this bit. RFID tags are kinda like a form of wireless barcode. Its actually very accurate. The errors generally come in failures to disable the tags by the clerks, not the system itself.
It is theoretically possible to trigger it with for example a jacket identical to one carried by the store in question but unlikely as the encoding and amount of information being handled by these tags is becoming more advanced by the day.
Give it another few years and you will be able to check out in a few seconds by just driving your cart through a RFID reader array. Prototypes of this type of system are already in use for recieving docks checking in freight as trucks are unloaded by forklifts.
Thanks for the info, drachillix, but in a couple of ways your post still doesn’t really ease my mind.
If the technology is so foolproof, why have my out-of-store purchases so often set off the security devices in stores where i had made no purchase at all?
More importantly, you don’t really address the issue from the consumer point of view. Fundamentally, i don’t really care if the mistake is made by the technology or by the store staff. The fact remains that if a store is legally able to use these devices as probable cause to detain me, i believe that the store should be legally required to take the necessary steps to ensure that the system (man and/or machine) works properly.
The tags at least in older systems are just looking for an alert response from the tag. Its very generic, so an item not disabled by a prior store or in a store where the tags existed but are not used by the store (these items are often placed by the manufacturer so non-RFID stores could still have the tag even though they dont check or disable them.)
So in a nutshell, walmarts system worked flawlessly, the place where you bought your favorite jacket screwed up. Eventually these sytems will be able to easily tell that the SKU#254454215642 size 8 reebok cross trainers you are wearing hav not been disabled.
As I pointed out above, it might not even be that store that screwed up. The systems are becoming more complex all the time and eventually you will start seeing retailers being able to program their own RFID tags with codes that can differentiate RFID tags from other stores or even ID the product. For all the potential inconvenince Walmart has actually been a heavy supporter of more advanced checkout and security features like RFID. They want to be able to check out your cart just driving through. With quality RFID systems it would become almost impossible to shoplift because the array will tag the small item in your pocket too.
Serious RFID implementation is still in its infancy, give it a few years and you will never carry a wallet ever again, all of your creditcard/medical insurance/drivers licence, etc data can be encoded on a wristwatch or bracelet of sorts.
The bracelet stuff could be easily protected by only allowing them to be read when a buton is pressed or a pin number confirms it like an atm card today. Cloning them might be an issue but this is a subject for a whole nuther thread.
And I was wondering if anyone in the midwest could tell me if they are still using those “self-check out” lanes in grocery stores. I know that Krogers had them, and I think a few other retailers might have had them too. I remember that a huge problem with them was that people wouldn’t properly deactivate the tags. I haven’t seen them out here in CA yet, so I was wondering in the whole program was scrapped.
I don’t know about the midwest, but my local Super Fresh here in Baltimore has self service check out lanes. So far they have worked fine for me, but i’ve seen people having trouble with them, usually because they don’t follow the instructions properly.
In my little area of the upper Midwest we have a six month old Walmart Supercenter. The buzzer area generally has someone working there. However the person is usually a 65+ year old small man or woman. I can pretty safely guess that they have no direction to try to detain anyone. This was confirmed by an earlier poster.
My girlfriend and I have set the system off about four times in the six months the store has been open. It is always for a DVD that hasn’t been disabled. The employee will write down the item. I even got the impression once that too many of these ended up being a mark against a cashier.
I have no reason to doubt or care about your hand to hand combat training, but I’m curious of the connection with the EOD training. I went to a lengthy Navy EOD school and hand to hand combat wasn’t even close to being in the curriculum. Was there supposed to be a connection? Just curious.
