What if I perform a miracle?

Great Debates
1

Let’s say I’m out walking in my fields, asassinating Groundhogs, repressing the Almish and such.

All of a sudden the bush I’m sitting next to starts burning.

“Scylla!”

“Huh, What? Who’s that?”

“This is God, Scylla?”

“Uh, OK.”

“Do you remember that time when you were six yearls old and trying to camp out by yourself in the backyard?”

“I guess so.”

"Good. You beleived there was a bear outside your tent that was about to eat you. You prayed to me then. You said that if I stopped the bear you would do, and I quote, “anything I wanted you to? Do you remember that?”

“Yeah, but I was kinda little then, you don’t mean you really expect me to…”

“SILENCE! You will recall that you were not eaten by a bear that night. I kept my end of the bargain. Are you prepared to fulfill your obligation to your Godfather and avenge luca Brasi’s death at the hand s of the Tataglia family… …Er, soory, got distracted there. Ahem. Are you prepared to fulfill your obligation?”

“Sure, if you say so. What do you want me to do?”

“In my name I will give you the power to perform miracles!”

"Great, I can raise the dead, turn water into wine. This is gonna be cool!’

“I will give you the power to turn bananas into porkchops. Go forth now and preach my Glory”

“Bananas into Porkchops? Hey, wait a minute! Hello… Hello?”

So let’s say I go back to the house, grab a banana, and sure enough I can turn it into a porkchop.

I figure I better go perform this miracle, and preach God’s glory or go to hell or something,m so I call up the Amazing Randi. I explain to him that I have the supernatural ability to turn bananas into porkchops. We agree on the terms of the test. I then turn a banana into a porkchop before his eyes and claim whatever portion of the prize money has been pledged.

Taking that money, I then start a ministry, perform the miracle to all who request it, explain about the burtning bush and God, etcetera.

My question (and it is a serious one,) is is this enough?

Will this turn science upside down? Will it change the world or will I just be another revivalist tent huckster taken none to seriously?

Carpe Marmot Marmosa!

Via Con Huevos

2

No-one would believe a) you could do it and b) that God would give someone such a lame ability. Either way your credibility is low.

Then of course there’s the possibility of being taken into custody and having countless experiments performed upon you person to verify the ability and then find a military application of it. :wink:

3

Thanks for making me think about Stranger In A Strange Land, by Bob Heinlein. Haven’t re-read it in a long while.

When the wheels come off, it’s time to retire.

4

Who are the Almish?
When you change bananas into porkchops, do you change one banana into one porkchop, or X kilograms of bananas into X kilograms of porkchops (the former would be much more impressive)?

Enough of my questions. On to yours:

It certainly would cause quite a bit of scientific investigation, but I don’t think it would turn science upside down. I mean, there isn’t a Law of Conservation of Bananas, is there? I don’t think that this sort of thing is specifically prohibited by any science.

That would depend on both your intent and ability. If you have no concern for changing the world, probably little will change. It would be a good way to get people’s attention, but in itself I don’t think it would be enough to do much. If you have a great plan to save the world and the ability to change bananas into porkchops, you can probably get your plan out to a bunch of people, whereas is you only have a plan, or you only have this weird ability, you probably couldn’t do much.

And personally, I wouldn’t consider this to be a miracle. A miracle is something that can’t happen; if you can do this, then it obviously is possible. Okay, it’s circular, but that’s part of the definition of “miracle”; miracles by definition don’t happen.

5

A repeatable, carefully observed phenomenon, even a trivial one, with no rational explanation would indeed throw science on its ear. One of the primary selling points of empirical positivism is that every repeatable phenomenon turns out to have a rational explanation on careful observation and inquiry.

The fact that, to date, God has not offered even such a trivial “miracle” is to me pretty convincing evidence that He does not exist.

I think John Denver’s situation in God (although a mediocre movie) was more existentially interesting. Here’s a guy, with absolute personal proof but zero objective proof, receiving a mission by God himself.

Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

6

Scylla,

If GaWd gave you the power to say, inflict psychic orgasms on women, I think the scientific world would take note.

Not to mention that you could go in to the “tentshow” business to show your peers how to achieve the same level of greatness.

Then after some success, you could buy some infomercial time and maybe even start a MLM program…?

And remember kids, crack doesn’t smoke itself!

7

The amount to which the scientific world would be turned on its’ ear and the amount to which you would be taken note of both depend on your marketing abilities. I can put together a splendid advertising blitz for you… get you on Leno (or Letterman, whichever you prefer), have you interview the President for CBS, get you a guest-starring role on “Friends”, get you a book deal… all I ask is ten percent of the profits and as many bananas-turned-porkchops as I can eat, okay?

-SPOOFE

8

I apologize for what will no doubt be justly percieved as a flame but

Scylla your thread reminds me of Pashley’s “What if Noah’s ark were found” thread

[Ducking Scylla’s bricks]

Seriously. Yes IF you performed a miracle, even one as silly as the bannana to porkchop one you propose, the scientific world would be turned upside down. Similarly IF we found Noah’s ark a lot of natural history would require revision. Since neither event is likely to happen soon, I’ll stick with the standard model of science and history.

To fly! The dream of man and flightless bird alike! -Some general on the Simpsons

9

Well, what exactly do you mean by “Will this turn science upside down?”

If you mean “Will this create a big ruckus?” I’m sure the answer would be an unqualified “Yes”. (Provided you made your abilities known and proved them beyond doubt.)

However, if you mean “Would science dwindle away while everyone finally admits there is a God and flock to my call?” Nope. Science won’t go away even in the extremely likely event that someone proves the existence of God or the IPU.

Firstly, science works. It provides results and predicts accurately the behavior of the observable universe. As tools go, science is far more successful than magic or prayer in any measurable way.

Secondly, science adjusts. You have a new model that fits the facts observed in a situation better than the old model? After replication and review, science will adopt the new model. You would have wires and monitors attached to every conceivable place on your body and tubes out of every orifice as people tried to gather enough data to construct a Theory of Pork Chop Conversion.

Thirdly, scientists (the good ones anyway) are not daunted by the fact that they don’t yet have all the answers. They recognize that there are some things they just don’t know yet, but that does not mean that those things are necessarily unknowable. What’s another mystery?

Cogito ergo sum…I think.

10

Why? The existence of some big boat, even one that could be identified as having been built by some guy named “Noah,” doesn’t logically imply anything beyond some guy named Noah built a damn big boat. It doesn’t even prove that there was a summer shower, let alone a worldwide flood. Similarly, this bizarre transformative ability doesn’t imply anything beyond banana changes into pork chop. Just because something can’t currently be explained doesn’t mean that there’s a supernatural cause for it.

11

Otto:

Au contraire, that ability, and my explanation of where it came from would certainly “imply” quite a bit.

I do resent the similarity implied (there’s that word again) between this and the Ignorant One’s thread. At least I was specific in my OP.

Carpe Marmot Marmosa!

Via Con Huevos

12

What about Jerry Lewis movies? But seriously, science hardly claims to have a rational explanation for every repeatable phenomenon.

The ability itself doesn’t imply much, and your explanation isn’t proven by the existence of your ability.

13

Well, it probably wouldn’t mean much.

If you could turn pork chops into bananas though… THAT would be something.

PeeQueue

14

Hmmm.

What do you think “imply” means.

Carpe Marmot Marmosa!

Via Con Huevos

15

Just to clear up a point, I took finding noah’s ark to mean finding NOAH’s ark, along with reasonable evidence of the flood story. I know just finding a big boat in the mountains wouldn’t mean much in itself.

To fly! The dream of man and flightless bird alike! -Some general on the Simpsons

16

Get my son to clean his room and I’ll write you a psalm.

Needs

17

Bananas into porkchops?? Forget that, porkchops aint kosher, God would never set up THAT miracle.

But, Scylla, you do countless miracles every day. You breathe in air, and your lungs push it into your blood. Your heart beats and circulates the blood and oxygen to feed your body. You see with your eyes, you hear with your ears, you can walk and talk and think. You think those aren’t miracles?

If you were designing a universe, before the Big Bang, when there’s nothing out there, would it even occur to you to put organs in critters than can smell? that can perceive light and colours thereof?

Turning bananas into porkchops is a cheap magician’s trick. Anyone with competent slight of hand can do it. Giving birth to a tiny human being that has it’s own little brain and central nervous system, now THAT’s a first class miracle.

18

The people who don’t believe in god and wouldent no matter what god does.

Science has a explanation for everyting? what about quantum mechanics. Surely you dont believe random chance is a explanation :slight_smile:

19

Oh, come on, Dexy! You know that God wound up doing a lot of things which weren’t in the handbook… You know, that whole Jesus thing? :smiley:

Yer pal,
Satan

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20

OK, I’d call you a servant of the Lord for turning evil vegetables into yummy meat. However, I don’t think I could worship you as my own Christ, as I don’t care for pork. Perhaps if matt_mcl were to be imbued with the gift of turning, say, cauliflower into a New York strip steak, I think then I’d start building a temple (with a grill for an altar) and start shouting, “Hallelujah, and pass the BBQ sauce!” :smiley:

Esprix

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