What if Jesus didn't die?

[begbert2]

@kanicbird

What could you possibly do that someone somewhere hasn’t done before, and what could you do that God didn’t think of first?

Um, copyright law says that if you independently think of an idea, even to the point that if you independently write word-for-word the entire text of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, right down to drawing and painting an identical cover yourself, then you are not guilty of copyright infringement. This is because we believe that a person has independent responsibility for their own ideas. The only way that satan owns one of our thoughts is if he literally puts it into our mind. The same thing goes for God. Anything else is, dare I say it, silly. It would be like saying that because my dad owned a sheet of paper, all sheets of paper belong to him. Nope; separate, independently created sheets of paper belong to their respective owners.

If you apply the notion that you don’t own an idea if someone merely had it before you, then all ideas belong to God anyhow; he’s omnitient and was even before he created satan. God rejecting it is irrelvent; it’s an arbitrary action on his part to decide to act as though Satan had the idea first. This would be something he could do since he would ‘own’ the thoughts, but it would be a sham. In reality he would retain all rights and Satan would have no claim on us.

No, the only way it works is if God and Satan actively, literally create and put each thought into our heads. Then there’s no ‘first come first serve’ rule to inevitable throw everything back into God’s lap.

@kanicbird

There are plenty of things we can do with God’s kingdom alone, without the knowledge of Satan’s. Look at all the things Jesus did - He only acted in God’s kingdom. IMHO Satan and his forces only operate in Satan’s kingdom - I don’t think demons are allowed or capable to operate in God’s kingdom.

Sure, sure, there’s plenty of things. It’s still a piss-poor example of free will if you incapable of even concieveing of, imagining, or understanding the remainder of spectrum of ideas available to an entity with a real mind.

@kanicbird

Yes and the wages of sin is death - again:
Non-believer = death dept satisfied
Beleiver = Jesus paid the death by dieing dept satisfied

And that believer didn’t pay squat, unless becoming one with Jesus is a punishment like unto death. Hence, beleiver didn’t pay for his actions, justice wasn’t served.

@kanicbird

You are getting into salvation theory here. as I pointed out above, non-believers has to pay for sin by death. Believers, who are to become one with Jesus, who is one with the Father, and God has already paid this price.

Isn’t this thread about salvation theory? And as I said, Justice is not served. God can pay the price for others, but this does not satisfy justice for the others. (Unless you want to argue that we’re borged or something, and cease to be separate entities from him in any way, in which case it gets a little more confusing. It really wouldn’t surprise me were you to argue this position, either.)

[kanicbird]

@enigm4tic

These in particular I’d be interested in seeing. If these are biblical conclusions I don’t recall ever seeing the wording or extrapolations used to arrive at these particular arguments.

You belonging to God had incurred a debt to Satan. - I’d have to look up this to see if it is biblical or not, I suspect it’s a extrapolation.

I would say the wages of sin are death could be used

Satan is at God’s thrown constantly pleading his case to acquire us, - Not Sure

@Revelation 12:10 NIV

Then I heard (A)a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the (B)salvation, and the power, and the (C)kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the (D)accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

God is the judge, but God will honor His word, which means that Satan has legitimate God given rights- Biblical and I can support the conclusion biblically.

I suspect you are not questioning God is Judge or He will honor His word, just that Satan has legitimate God given rights. If so:

@Job 1:12

The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Here God is giving Satan certain rights.

[Skammer]

I usually stay out of these debates – can anyone really say anything to convince anyone to change their mind in on online messageboard? – but for those interested in Christian theories about how Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection accomplished… well, whatever it accomplished, I read a pretty good summary of the different theories that the church has historically put forward on this blog. I usually read this blog because the owner pretty much disagrees with me on everything related to our church, but I thought here he provided a pretty good summary of the different theories of the atonement.

Ultimately, I agree with the blogger (who goes by the pseudonym “Father Jake”) when he in turn quotes C.S. Lewis:

We are told that Christ was killed for us, that His death has washed out our sins, and that by dying He disabled death itself. That is the formula. That is Christianity. That is what has to be believed. Any theories we build up as to how Christ’s death did all this are, in my view, quite secondary: mere plans or diagrams to be left alone if they do not help us, and, even if they do help us, not to be confused with the thing itself…

[kanicbird]

@begbert2

And that believer didn’t pay squat, unless becoming one with Jesus is a punishment like unto death. Hence, beleiver didn’t pay for his actions, justice wasn’t served.

You keep trying to impose human rules and laws on God and spiritual matters, but anyway:

Human nonbeliever Corp. incurs a debt to Satan Inc.
Human nonbeliever has to repay

Human believer Corp incurs a debt to Satan Inc.
Satan Inc owes the same debt to Father and Son Company.
Human Believer Corp is acquired by Father and Son Company in friendly takeover.

Debt against Human Believer Corp has been legally transfered to it’s new acquiring company and presatified by Father and Son Company

[begbert2]

@kanicbird

You keep trying to impose human rules and laws on God and spiritual matters, but anyway:

Human nonbeliever Corp. incurs a debt to Satan Inc.
Human nonbeliever has to repay

Human believer Corp incurs a debt to Satan Inc.
Satan Inc owes the same debt to Father and Son Company.
Human Believer Corp is acquired by Father and Son Company in friendly takeover.

Debt against Human Believer Corp has been legally transfered to it’s new acquiring company and presatified by Father and Son Company

And Human Believer Corp has, fundamentally, ceased to exist.

Is that what you’re proposing?

(And as for imposing human rules, laws, ethics, and standards on God, well, yes. But the persons who claim that God is Just did first. If God is unjust then there are no logical conflicts. (At least not about the justice part.))

[kanicbird]

And Human Believer Corp has, fundamentally, ceased to exist.

Is that what you’re proposing?

Yes exactly, though the assets are still there, the old Corp is gone. Commonly called ‘born again’.

[Der_Trihs]

@Autolycus

As a Catholic, I fully understand what you are getting at, but I think you should clarify what you mean by “becoming one” for the sake of the environment. Jesus is not The Borg.

“WHY DO YOU RESIST? WE ONLY WISH TO IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF LIFE FOR ALL PEOPLE. YOU WILL ALL BECOME ONE…WITH THE LORD.”

[Autolycus]

@Der Trihs

“WHY DO YOU RESIST? WE ONLY WISH TO IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF LIFE FOR ALL PEOPLE. YOU WILL ALL BECOME ONE…WITH THE LORD.”

Haha that gave me a chuckle

[kanicbird]

@BegBert2

If you apply the notion that you don’t own an idea if someone merely had it before you, then all ideas belong to God anyhow; he’s omnitient and was even before he created satan. God rejecting it is irrelvent; it’s an arbitrary action on his part to decide to act as though Satan had the idea first.

Even in our laws we have the ability to transfer rights, such as copyrights, from one person to another. I don’t see any issue of God giving the copyright of adultery to Satan

[begbert2]

@kanicbird

Yes exactly, though the assets are still there, the old Corp is gone. Commonly called ‘born again’.

If “born again” means “Borged” or “destroyed”, sure. If the individual persists, he retains his individual obligations to justice, regardless of if he puts on a new “Born Again” hat.

God can of course be mercifully protecting his new posession/servant/spouse/slave/whatever from that individual’s obligations to justices, sure. Nobody said he couldn’t. He just can’t do it and be fulfiling the demands of justice at the same time.

@kanicbird

Even in our laws we have the ability to transfer rights, such as copyrights, from one person to another. I don’t see any issue of God giving the copyright of adultery to Satan

There’s no problem with him doing it, except that he would have to do so knowing that he would be creating a situation that would cause people to be horribly punished (or, more precisely, allow Him to cause people to be horribly punished). This puts you in the same situation as him merely pretending to transfer rights: he would have to have done so with the deliberate goal of damning people.

[HMS_Irruncible]

@Autolycus

Dont you think it’s highly unlikely that any Church could last 2000 years if it’s based on a complete fairy tale? I do. I’m not saying there’s any empirical proof that Jesus is the Son of God, but calling everything Christians hold dear is “made up” is IMO ignorant.

Yes, I do think made-up stuff can survive 2000 years. Survivability of myth doesn’t depend on truth, just on believability. It’s a very nice story… true, it’s not proven, and likely not provable, but likewise it isn’t at any risk for being disproven. So there’s no reason it shouldn’t be with us for a while.

The staying power of Christianity, in my opinion, rests in the fact that the teachings attributed to Jesus are profound, meaningful, and they stand the test of time. Love thy neighbor, nonviolent resistance, showing one’s faith in private, blessed are the peacemakers, humility, all that stuff… if everyone followed it, the world would be a much better place. It’s really a shame in my opinion that it’s bogged down with the whole “I died for your sins and I am the only way to heaven”, along with the Old Testament with its “eye for an eye” stuff. It leaves a great big loophole for people to say they’re Christians but still act like pompous assholes.

[monavis]

Kanicbird…You do know the Bible was not written by God and we have only the word of humans that it is God’s word or that it was inspired by God? So if we believe the Bible we are believing in a human not God.

Autolycus… Buddhism is 500 years older than Christianity and Judeism even longer,There is a religion in Egypt that still worships Osiris who by the way also died and was ressurected as many of the old gods did. Because a religion is still believed after 2000 years does not make it true. A religion lasts because it fills a need in some people.
Monavis

[BuickGNX1987]

I worked in a grocery store for a few years, and because of working sunday afternoons, i know they do indeed act like this. An example: A very dressed up couple came in about 12 or 1, and i commenced to bag their groceries. The last bag i filled was full of loafs of bread. I set this bag on top of a bag filled with several 2 liters of soda. The woman immediately and in a very snotty tone said, “Instead of crushing my groceries, you could carry that bag out for us.” From this point, i decided if im going to be Christian, i’m going to do it without going to church. Christians who act like pompous assholes, in reference (since as a guest i cannot quote) to post #71, need to read what Jesus said to and about the hypocrites in the bible. These kinds of people are not following the doctrines of Christianity at all, only using it for a platfrom upon which to look down on others. Christians are to go and inform people of the Good News of Christianity, not use it as a tool to say they are better than others. As Jesus said, “He who humbles himself will be exalted, and he who exalts himself will be humbled.” Any of these blowhard, arrogant types of Christians need to understand the faith they are professing to.

[enigm4tic]

@monavis

Kanicbird…You do know the Bible was not written by God and we have only the word of humans that it is God’s word or that it was inspired by God? So if we believe the Bible we are believing in a human not God.

That rationalist perspective is ignored by anybody who believes that the bible, though not directly, might as well be, the word of God. That anything written in the bible is, for all practical purposes, God’s word, whether directly influenced or concluded on by the authors. Everything else is irrelevant.

As an aside: Buick you can quote, either through the use of the {quote} tags (with brackets and using ={username} to attribute) or when you hit “reply” you can simply click through the next screen, it doesn’t prevent you from quoting, merely reminds you that you haven’t actually subscribed.

[BuickGNX1987]

@enigm4tic

As an aside: Buick you can quote, either through the use of the {quote} tags (with brackets and using ={username} to attribute) or when you hit “reply” you can simply click through the next screen, it doesn’t prevent you from quoting, merely reminds you that you haven’t actually subscribed.

Thanks, i will try to master this in the future

[monavis]

@enigm4tic

That rationalist perspective is ignored by anybody who believes that the bible, though not directly, might as well be, the word of God. That anything written in the bible is, for all practical purposes, God’s word, whether directly influenced or concluded on by the authors. Everything else is irrelevant.

As an aside: Buick you can quote, either through the use of the {quote} tags (with brackets and using ={username} to attribute) or when you hit “reply” you can simply click through the next screen, it doesn’t prevent you from quoting, merely reminds you that you haven’t actually subscribed.

Of course those who believe the Bible is the word of God will ignore it,one tends to accept or believe what they want, not what is.

It still stands that the Bible was written by humans, humans said it was inspired and humans said it was God’s word. The same can be said for the Koran or any book.but they are believing in what a human says not God.

Monavis