I say, give them a dose of the same that we would apply to a foreign enemy.
Fast trials and executions (given concrete evidence). The diversion of our national resources in this time of concern is nothing short of treasonous. What potential mitigation could possibly be assigned to this activity?
[li] Make the US more aware of the threat of bio-terrorism?[/li]
[sup]THANK YOU, WE’LL KILL YOU NOW FOR YOUR EFFORTS TO STEER US AWAY FROM THE FIGHT AGAINST EXTERNAL TERRORISM.[/SUP]
[li] Try and direct the blame upon Iraq or al-Qaeda?[/li]
[sup]THANK YOU, BUT WE DIDN’T NEED ANY DISTRACTION. WE’LL KILL YOU FOR THE MISDEED.[/SUP]
[li] Try and harm the innocent citizens of our country?[/li]
[sup]THANK YOU, WE’LL KILL YOU FOR TRYING TO DO SO IN THE FIRST PLACE.[/SUP]
I’m not sure what you’re arguing here; the OP is a little unclear.
But rest assured that if these guys turn out to be of domestic origin (as I suspect they are), and if the state where they are eventually located has been providing them aid and support and subsequently refuses to hand them over to the appropriate authorities, I would support the bombing of that state.
Well, while I understand your feelings, well still have the same jurisprudence system in place. With all the same appeals available to any other person. So a quick trial and execution is out of the question.
He seems to be arguing that the Feds should seek the death penalty if the source of the bioterrorism turns out to be domestic. I’m guessing he’s not going to get much resistance on that one from this Administration (nor likely any subsequent Administration in the foreseeable future, if this drags out that long).
I’m not quite sure if the “special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States” applies here–"[a]ny island, rock, or key containing deposits of guano"?–but if killing people by sending them biological weapons through the U.S. Mail doesn’t qualify as a crime under federal jurisdiction, I dunno what would. It’s certainly “willful, deliberate, malicious, and premeditated”
Just in case offing people by mailing them anthrax across state lines doesn’t trigger federal capital murder charges, the fact that two of the victims were postal workers going about the performance of their official duties ought to do it.
So, let’s see, we’re talking about use of (a) a biological agent (2) against persons within the United States, affecting interstate commerce, and also (3) against property owned, leased or used by the United States and various departments or agencies thereof, resulting in death, and therefore punishable by a maximum penalty of death. Just in case there was any doubt about the applicability of 18 U.S.C. 1111.
And, if this is being done by Americans and we get the goods on them, I think Zenster can count on the prosecution to throw the book at them.
Zenster, if these terrorists are domestic, why would you want them dealt with any differently than domestic terrorists (such as McVeigh) have been dealt with in the past?
Hey, at least he’s not saying we should turn Idaho or the Ozarks or Mississippi or wherever the hell into a giant sheet of radioactive glass. I suppose that’s progress.
Manhattan, maybe you would like to provide some more realistic input on this little nugget of information:
ANTHRAX LETTER
In Karachi the editor of a leading Pakistani daily, the Urdu language Jang, said on Friday powder found in an envelope hand-delivered to his newspaper the previous week has tested positive for anthrax spores.
<snick>
It is the first confirmed anthrax case in Pakistan.
REUTERS Reut04:29 11-02-01
For the sake of debating here, let’s discuss whether our government is justified in thoroughly investigating any group that shows support for the 9/11 attacks. Groups like Christian Identity seem to have come out in praise of the 9/11 attacks. This is something that I find repulsive beyond measure. I would hope that our government is now scrutinizing such groups under a high power microscope. I have no problem with them being subjected to all of the new Anti-Terrorist no-notice search warrants and wire taps. Advocating such acts as 9/11 is so counter to all that America stands for I can only see these organizations a seditious and worthy of immediate dismantling.
I think that even more harsh measures should be applied to a group that is willing to perform this sort of terrorist act within our own borders. The anthrax attacks are orders of magnitude beyond McVeigh’s truck bomb. The localized damage in Oklahoma is in no way comparable to the immense economic harm that has resulted from the anthrax attacks.
Those who continue to lamely point out that the attacks have not killed many people and are therefore not very successful are incredibly stupid to think so. The diversion of important investigative resources and manpower because of these attacks represents a significant drain on the law enforcement bodies that we need in place to combat further violent attacks upon our nation. I would liken it to someone who sneaks a machine gun into a crowded stadium. If the machine gun jams and will not fire upon the first attempt to use it and the perpetrator succeeds only in stabbing someone with a knife that they have also armed themselves with, should the suspect only be charged with minor assault?
Such is the case with the anthrax attacks. However unsuccessful the attacks are in mass killings, the intent is there and it represents a dire threat to society as a whole. It must be addressed in such a fashion and merits the application of capital punishment. Any collaborators and abettors should also receive the death penalty as well.
I think those that lost loved ones in OKC would argue with you.
Of course not. Attempted murder. The lawyers would have to argue over how many counts, however. The whole stadium? Only those that can be proved to be in the line of fire? In any event, he’d still get attempted murder or Assualt with a Deadly Weapon for the stabbing alone.
The same goes for this case. Those responsible (and keep in mind that this may be several independent attackers) are guilty of murder, attempted murder(although the “we have this Anthrax” type stuff may drive that down to some version of assault with a deadly weapon)and perhaps obstruction of justice, as well as several more smaller related offenses, I’m sure.
Throw the book at them? Absolutely. Execute them? Well, I’m opposed to the death penalty for many reasons, but if it was ever applicable…
I said perhaps obstruction of justice because it’s not like they’re faking being a threat to Americans. They are a threat! I’d say that sets them apart from simply using diversionary tactics. Otherwise your theory of diverting the police would hold as true to “ordinary” criminals, which doesn’t sit right with me, for some reason.
Okay, Zenster, I’m having some trouble following this. The people who are actually responsible for the anthrax attacks–the people who cultivated the stuff and turned it into a powder than can be breathed and put it in envelopes and dropped it in mailboxes–those people are all guilty of what are clearly capital crimes under federal law.
But what do you mean by “collaborators and abettors”? Certainly anyone who had advance knowledge of the attacks and helped plan and execute them, or anyone who knew about the attacks after the fact and is helping to shelter the perpetrators, will face very serious charges. But are you saying we should extend this to people who have no specific knowledge of the criminal conspiracy to commit terrorist attacks, but who say stupid and hateful and despicable things about “race war” and the “Zionist Occupational Government”? People who commit criminal acts in furtherance of terrorist conspiracies and murder should be punished to the maximum extent of the law. People who use their freedom of speech to spread bigotry and lies should be responded to by the rest of us, using our freedom of speech to refute their arguments, counter their lies with the truth, and, where necessary, show them for what they are by holding them up for public contempt and scorn. (I am more or less assuming, for the purposes of this paragraph, that the anthrax attacks are the work of domestic terrorists, probably white supremacists. This of course has no more been proved than that the anthrax attacks were the work of foreign terrorists, probably affiliated with al-Qaeda.)
Oh, and as far as the “confirmed case” of anthrax in Pakistan: We had a “confirmed case” of anthrax in Kenya, too. They re-tested and decided it was mold. I believe the “confirmed anthrax” at the Microsoft office in Nevada that had been mailed from Indonesia has also been retracted. I’m not knocking anybody here–my impression is that the quickest tests for anthrax, the ones used first, are rather sensitive and tend to produce false positives. The more certain tests take longer (I believe they involve culturing micro-organisms taken from the suspicious material). I’m not saying that there isn’t anthrax in Pakistan, only that we need to make sure we know the facts.
Finally, I agree that the anthrax attacks are a very serious matter. There’s a middle ground between everyone panicking and refusing to open that letter from Publisher’s Clearinghouse or putting the postcard from Aunt Marge in the microwave and setting it on “high” for 30 minutes and taking Cipro when their hay fever acts up; and saying “well, ‘only’ four people have died, and more people die every hour in car accidents” and so forth. No, the attacks haven’t depopulated cities, but they are a deliberate attempt to kill and spread terror by using biological weapons. The attacks are being carried out at the same time as (possibly in conjunction with) other serious attacks which killed thousands, and there’s a war on. We need to take this very seriously. We don’t need to get hysterical and start shooting every Arab, or every nitwit white racist, either.
"But what do you mean by ‘collaborators and abettors’? "
What I mean is that anyone who actively participated in this crime should be instantly elegible for the death penalty and it should not be negotiable. There should be no chance to plead to a lesser crime or penalty.
I cannot possibly see where you have been able to read; “…extend this to people who have no specific knowledge of the criminal conspiracy to commit terrorist attacks, but who say stupid and hateful and despicable things about ‘race war’ and the ‘Zionist Occupational Government’…”
What I am advocating is that all who are complicit in this sick plot to the least degree face the death penalty for their participation. Where you may have misinterpreted me is that I also advocate that groups who express solidarity with the 9/11 attacks should instantly find themselves subject to the utmost scrutiny by federal authorities. While there may be provisions for such “free speech” (and I am glad that there are), there nonetheless should be a distinct element of suspicion attached to those who would in any way promote such a concept. To cheer on such a twisted plot is nearing (if not directly converging with) the moral equivalent of yelling “fire” in a crowded theater. It represents a purposeful participation in the dissemination of ideas and acts that are in direct opposition to the public’s well being.
I fail to see where our liberties are well served by allowing people to extoll such a heinous crime and do so in a completely unfettered fashion. While the public censure you mention is a good start and something that all right-thinking people are morally bound to, our government is obliged to protect the population from the potential that such support represents. As with the need to investigate those that would wish for a re-establishment of Hitler’s policies of genocide (i.e., the Aryan Nation or Brotherhood), so should those that express solidarity with the perpetrators of the 9/11 atrocity enjoy the specific scrutiny of those that are empowered to protect us.
Where you are able to derive; “…start shooting every Arab, or every nitwit white racist, either.” is beyond me. Please read my posts more carefully.
In recent news:
Reports of Anthrax Emerge in Germany, Pakistan and India
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 6:09 p.m. ET
In India, the health secretary of a western state said Friday that powder found in an envelope in a government office tested positive for anthrax and would be examined further.
Meanwhile, in Germany, initial tests came back positive for anthrax on a letter and two packages. Later tests in Berlin found no evidence of the bacteria, officials said. The letter had a return address in Islamabad, Pakistan, and a German postmark dated Oct. 24.
At the U.S. Embassy in Athens, Greece, traces of bacteria have been found in a mailbag, the State Department said Friday in Washington. Greek officials said a suspicious envelope sent to a U.S. Navy base was also being tested.
In Pakistan, white powder in a letter received Oct. 23 by the Daily Jang newspaper tested positive for anthrax, said Dr. Mohammed Tasleem of Agha Khan University Hospital in Karachi.
Most of the 120 employees at the U.S. Embassy in Lithuania are taking antibiotics – although none showed symptoms of anthrax – after a laboratory in the Baltic country confirmed Thursday that traces of anthrax were found in at least one mailbag at the embassy.
Zenster, I’m stil not completely sure if you are saying people should be put in jail or otherwise subjected to criminal penalties for saying stupid or hateful things. I’m pretty sure the feds have been doing things like monitoring and even infiltrating extremist groups for some time now. Generally, this strikes me as a good idea. I do think that tapping people’s phones or opening their mail or bugging their houses (as opposed to, say, getting yourself on a mailing list or attending a meeting or going to some sort of “retreat” something) is a serious invasion of a citizen’s privacy, and should only be done if there is evidence to warrant it during the investigation of an actual crime or conspiracy to commit a crime.
Please, MEBuckner, what part of; “While there may be provisions for such “free speech” (and I am glad that there are)…”, don’t you understand?
I fully believe that people should enjoy the greatest of latitude in freedom of speech. I also believe that those who engage in the promotion (and even just vocal advocacy) of crimes against humanity should be immediately subjected to intense scrutiny by those that are empowered to protect us. What possible public interest could in any way be served by leaving those who condone such heinous crimes entirely unobserved? The intolerance and xenophobic mentality that Axis Nazism and the Taleban represent provide not one scintilla of benefit for the advancement of humanity. Any disregard for the potent threat that such modes of thought represent goes against the grain of public good.
[ul]
[li]The feds getting themselves on all the white supremacist mailing lists and reading all their newsletters;[/li][li]Feds posing as right-wing loons attending the meetings of the local Up With Aryans! chapter;[/li][li]Undercover feds attending some big White Power Hootenany out in Idaho or wherever and listening to all the moronic speeches and mingling with the crowd and chatting people up;[/li][/ul]
Or does “intense scrutiny” extend to:
[ul]
[li]The feds putting wiretaps on people’s telephones;[/li][li]The feds steaming open people’s mail down at the post office;[/li][li]G-men breaking into people’s homes and businesses while they’re out at the White Power Hootenany and rooting through their underwear drawers and copying the hard drives on their computers and bugging their bedrooms and pestering their cats.[/ul][/li]
List one I got no problems with. List two should only happen if a warrant has been issued on probable cause and these things are part of an ongoing investigation into an actual crime or an attempt to commit an actual crime.
They will probably throw the book at them while making no apologies for fingers pointed earlier and probably try them for murder since 4 is it people have died from it, and to make a major example of these people .It probably is domestic since Bin Laden uses the Daily Jang (the Pakistani news paper) to communicate (along with al Jazera TV) and the editior has connections with Bin Laden
not so much as an alliance , but he is writing Bin Laden’s
book the title of which eludes me currently and has been interviewed many times by the editior
I believe that the part that is giving him, as well as everyone else without ESP, trouble is the exact nature of those provisions.
But if you didn’t subject to scrutiny, that would be a greater latitude of freedom of speech. So you don’t believe that people should be given the greatest latitude.
ANd just in case murder isn’t enough, it seems to me that this should be treated as a hate crime (assuming that they were sent to people specifically because they were Americans).