I am puzzled by pronouncements in the press that authorities increasingly suspect that the anthrax attacks have been perpetrated by home-grown terrorists.
Obviously, I am not privy to all of the information available to the government, but the idea that this is home-grown seems very unlikely to me. Look at the circumstantial evidence:[ul][li]The first attack was on a tabloid newspaper. To me this betrays a lack of understanding of American culture. It appears as if the attacker doesn’t “get” the fact that tabloids are a joke, and are not serious news outlets.[]The attacks appear to have originated in Florida and New Jersey, two areas where Islamic fanatics have been known to operate. The hijackers spent considerable time in Florida. You may also recall that the first bombing of the World Trade Center was carried out by a New Jersey cell. Possibly this is an attempt at misdirection by a domestic terrorist, but that seems improbable.[]The hijackers were studying crop dusters before the attack on the WTC. This suggests that they were in possession of some harmful substance they wished to spread.The anthrax spores appear to have been finely milled and chemically treated, which suggests a sophisticated operation. Not conclusive by any means, but this suggests the involvement of a foreign government.[/ul][/li]
Given the above circumstantial evidence, why does the government seem to be banging the “domestic terrorist” drum? Are they lying to us to try to keep us calm? Or is there something I’m missing?
Anyone out there who thinks this is domestic? What are your reasons, and how do you respond to the circumstantial evidence noted above? Who do you think is behind it?
Well obviously I don’t know, but I disagree with your reasons against suspecting locals.
This presumes something about the motivations of the anthrax mailers which we don’t know. If the aim was to generate attention and disquiet rather than kill lots of people, frankly attacking a tabloid sems pretty sensible anyway.
Sure, at some stage. But it doesn’t have to be now. For the breathable stuff the consensus seems to be that it has to have come from Iraq, Russia or the US. But it’s possible that someone stole the stuff from the US government a while back.
Again, yes and no. The current campaign is insidious, but it also could be an amateur operation. Who can tell? But it very much lacks the “grand gesture” element of the WTC.
I wouldn’t dismiss the possiblity. If I had to put a number on it, I’d give it a 40% probability of being a local or locals.
I see this one as support for a homegrown terrorist. Regardless of how well various terrorists understand what a tabloid is they know that the New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, etc. are the major news organizations in the US. It doesn’t take a genius to figure that out. In addition they would likely target the government as has happened. The point is to spread fear and terror for a political cause and not just chase down some perceived slight by a tabloid. I do, however, see a homegrown terrorist going after America Media in Florida in a fit of pique over some article or other.
I think this doesn’t prove anything one wya or the other. Terrorists could be anywhere and are isolated from one another so if one cell goes down the others don’t go with it. It wouldn’t surprise me, assuming these are muslim terrorists living in New Jersey, if the WTC attackers had absolutely zero knowledge about the cell waiting to spread anthrax.
This is compelling evidence for it being terrorists related to Al’Qaeda.
The spores, while apparently manufactured, are identical to stuff the US has produced LONG in the past. There was some neo-nazi type in the US who actually successfully ordered anthrax through the mail. Fortunately the FBI got to him before he took delivery in this instance but it scarily showed how relatively easy it is (was) for US citizen to get their hands on this stuff.
Personally I think it is both Al’Qaeda terrorists (or their ilk) and homegrown terrorists. All of the anthrax discovered so far has not been identical…some seems finely manufactured or other cases seem more ‘mundane’. This leads me to believe that there are multiple sources for the anthrax. One would suppose that anyone getting anthrax would do so from one single supplier (its safer than getting it from several places). Whether or not we have both homegrown terrorists and muslim terrorists this suggets to me there is more than one cell doing this. The attacks would also make sense from a homegrown terrorists perspective since they might feel safer believing they are under the cover (as it were) of muslim terrorist attacks so they’d be less likely to be caught which might be a little bit true (although now that the FBI is buzzing like a hornets nest looking for terrorists this might be a miscalculation).
Could you provide a source for this? I’ve seen that the government suspects that the anthrax itself was developed in the US (or from US stocks), but not that they increasingly suspect domestic terrorists.
In addition to the reasons you outline, I am skeptical as to whether the US terrorist groups would target ordinary Americans, as these groups seem to have done (in addition to the government).
I admit that I am a bit unclear about US terrorist groups though. How many and how large (& well financed) are they? I know there are some guys who like to spout off about coming race wars etc. but I don’t know if that equates to a full blown terrorist group.
Can we speculate that the “home grown ist” and the Middle East have become “Strange Bedfellows?” Strange alliances have been know to happen. The CIA is preported to have used Organized Crime to attempt to “off” Castro. So why not an uneasy alliance betwen “The Middle East” and “Home Grown ist’s?” Unfortunately, if there is a connection, our Government is keeping it to themselves.
I’ve wondered about the domestic terrorist theory for a while now, due to the simple reason that the anthrax is being disseminated anonymously through the mail.
Bin Laden’s minions have a history of big incidents (usually explosions) in which they die: the WTC, the Cole, and so on. They are suicidal and seem to want to do as much property damage as they can, while taking out as many civilians as possible.
But in this anthrax scare, the letters are anonymous, or have fictitious return addresses. (No online cite, but according to this week’s printed Time, “Greendale School” in New Jersey does not exist.) By their nature, these letters can infect very few people at once. This approach doesn’t fit the profile; where is the explosion, the property damage, the maximized casualties? And more importantly for Bin Laden’s people, the fiery suicide?
I’m reminded of the poison Tylenol a number of years ago–the anonymous person who laced bottles of Tylenol with poison. And of Timothy McVeigh, who was trying to leave the scene after parking his truck bomb in Oklahoma City. No suicidal tendencies in either case, assuming the anonymous Tylenol poisoner didn’t sample his or her own product.
The anonymous anthrax letters don’t necessarily point to a domestic terrorist. They could be coming from anybody, including a Bin Laden mole, who sees this as an opportune time to carry out their attack. But because of the similarity to other domestic terrorist incidents such as the Tylenol scare and Oklahoma City (in other words, the anonymity and the lack of fiery death), I don’t think domestic terrorism as a cause can be completely discounted either.
Thing that confused me was the bizarre misspellings in the letters. Unless it’s a deliberate attempt at misdirection, I think we can be fairly sure that whoever wrote the letters and whoever concocted the anthrax must be two different people, since I think most medical scientists know how to spell penicillan.
This was actually one of the reasons cited by the FBI for domestic terrorists. They figured someone whose second language was English would actually look up his or her words. A native English-speaker would be less likely to.
Besides, I think the most compelling evidence that this is a different group of terrorists is that each of letters warn the victim they now have anthrax and need medication. Anyone who wouldn’t scruple to kill thousands of innocent people almost randomly to get their point across probably wouldn’t have a problem with killing a few carefully selected individuals they hated.
Perhaps you would all like to read and update some of your information based on links and discussion in the following thead http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=94814 which discussed who the Anthrax attacks came from. It strikes me the assertions in re the nature of the Anthrax etc need to be qualified.
Probably an unhelpful aside, but… not only is the school fictional, but the city and zip code don’t match. I used to LIVE in zip code 08852, and it was Monmouth Junction, not Franklin Park.
I’m sure it’s highly unlikely the terrorists were in either town, but I still did a major double-take when I saw that zip code…
I do not think it is Al’Qaeda terrorists. I get the impression that Al’Qaeda really want to go for big hits. If so, why not try shut down the postal system? Stockpile enough anthrax and mail out one giant wave. People get sick and die all over the country before realizing it’s an anthrax attack. Especially get target postal workers and seriously try to shut down the entire mail system. This reeks of a small group or just one dissatisfied domestic ala Unabomber or the Tylenol guy.
actually, I just finished reading the second page of Collounsbury’s link and that gives quite a lot of background on this issue. I still stand by my assertion that if it was a serious attack, the goal would be to shut down the mail as opposed to making people fearful of opening letters. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=94814&pagenumber=2
It just occured to me that for those of you who desire to understand how large sections of the Muslim world can still doubt or deny that it was some of “their own” – that is Muslims – who committed the 11 September attacks, I direct you to your own collective statements about not being able to believe that it could be Americans.
After 1995, it should be clear to us that there are some slight minority of Americans filled with enough hate to do something like this.
Now for all that, as stated in the other thread, I waver day to day between thinking it is someone sympathizing with al-Qaeda and a purely domestic person.
I have few doubts that this is not “domestic” in the sense of involving at the very least long-term residents.
I don’t think so. As I suggested earlier, the local terrorist groups tend to view the government as the enemy - I could see them targeting the government, as in 1995. Even the media, I’ll grant. But as it becomes likely that the American people were the targets I am more skeptical that it would be Americans.
In any event, what’s striking about the Muslim world’s denial is not merely the fact they are disinclined to believe that Muslims would do it - rather it is the fact that they would ignore overwhelming evidence that is was Muslims, in favor of wacked out Mossad conspiracy theories. By contrast, the evidence that the anthrax was local terrorists is weak if not nonexistent. If strong evidence emerges that it was Americans and the public continues to disbelieve it, you will have a point. (Note that this did not happen in the case of Tim McVeigh).
We don’t have any knowledge to say that the Anthrax spread is not collataral damage. And I point you to the fact our own T McVeigh say the nursury and said in later accounts, it was simply acceptable collataral damage.
Insofar as most of those groups view the “Liberals”, the ZOG, the Jews, the Mud People as not really Americans, I see no logical reason to presume that they would be all that put out at the idea of some liberal big city folks dieing as collataral damage in their war on ZOG.
That, of course, does not prove it is them and I retain some degree of doubt. However, your counter argument strikes as romantic red-blooded Americans couldn’t do this…
[quote
In any event, what’s striking about the Muslim world’s denial is not merely the fact they are disinclined to believe that Muslims would do it - rather it is the fact that they would ignore overwhelming evidence that is was Muslims, in favor of wacked out Mossad conspiracy theories.
[/quote]
Well, Izzy, when you live in a world where you have no good access to information. Where political clans do conspire to manipulate events behind the scenes and where machinations and lies are the order of the day, it’s not that hard to beleive in such shit.
Function of poverty, terrible socio-political structures, etc.
But let’s be careful with the generalizations, I know we’re both doing it so I just want to add the side note that we are both over-generalizing a bit here.
Shrug, strikes me your discounting of such evidence is weak version of the same.
We’re lucky in the USA that we have a robust system of information and generally high levels of education and a system of education and government that encourages at least some degree of critical thinking.
My point was not that there is strong or perfect analogy, but rather that the instinct to disbelieve the possibility that one of your own did something terrible is a strong, natural human one. Put it in the context of the Mid East as I sketched above and it gets its full, warped expression. Here we rein it in, and that is good.
In any case, I raised the issue as an aside for a way to understand the underlying structure of denial, not to bust on the USA which I believe has largely dealt with this very well indeed.
No, we don’t. Which is why I keep hedging when I write about it.
Well I can’t control how it strikes you, but that’s not what it is.
I’m sure that is a part of it. But that doesn’t explain the Pakistani fellow who runs a candy store in Brooklyn, who repeated the same stuff to my father. And others of this sort.
No doubt. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that there is a difference in fundamental human nature between Muslims and others (I don’t think you’ve even confronted that in your race threads ). Nonetheless it is true that due to both polical and cultural realities, along with the cicumstances such as you descibe, the Muslim world is at present more prone to such distortions. Which is yet another obstacle to dealing with the dangers that face us.
I don’t see any folks in this thread saying that Americans are not capable of such acts of terrorism. The premise of the thread is rather that the evidence points to foreign terrorists and not the home-grown variety.
Rather than link to another thread, it might be helpful if you summarize here the evidence that domestic terrorists are involved. Then we can debate the inferences to be drawn from the facts as we know them.
Well, if he’s an immigrant who came out of that culture, then it absolutely does. But in any case, no general explanation is going to cover everything – what I advanced explains a large part of the stupidity, I could add in aspects of Arab culture (Arab, not Islamic, you’ll find the same things among the Xtians and probably among the Sefardim) which add to this.
Anyway, there’s always idiots. Like my uncle’s carpenter who decides one saturday morning to regale me with ZOG tales and how the Jews control everything and Russia is the last hope of the White Race.
Spoke: I’m not an editor, I think a thread to another part of the same message board is not that taxing, no?
As I and others, and apparently the relevant authorities, have noted, the evidence does not point away from domestic terrorists. The evidence is ambiguous. Some people’s * suppositions * spin the evidence but that’s not the same as evidence.
Again, that doesn’t mean I particularly believe domestic TMcV types are actually behind this but rather I find your collective reading of the evidence, well, blinkered.
I am wide open to the idea that domestic terrorists are involved. All I ask is evidence of that. If you can’t be bothered to cite any, that hardly makes me “blinkered.”
I did read the other thread. The significant bits of circumstantial evidence in favor of domestic terrorists were:[ul][li]The letters were dated American-style, 9/11/01 rather than international style, 11/9/01. Weak evidence in my view. It doesn’t take much to observe that difference in styles and to adjust your usage depending on your location. I use the international style when I am traveling; no reason to think Middle Easterners wouldn’t be clever enough to use the American style while here.[]The letters closed with “Allah is great,” rather than “God is great.” The argument goes that Arabic speakers would typically translate “Allah” to “God” for an English-speaking audience. This is a stronger point, but far from conclusive. It would only take spending a little time in the US to realize that the word “Allah” is understood here.[]Domestic nut-jobs have (prior to 9/11) talked about using anthrax and then blaming it on Iraq. To rebut this argument, take a look at the points of origin of the letters. New Jersey and Florida. Not exactly two big hot spots for the white supremacist crowd, who are mostly found out west. Did they fly all the way to New Jersey and Florida to send the letters? Maybe, but that sure seems like a contorted argument to make. Fails the “Occam’s razor” test.[/ul][/li]
I don’t think any of those points is strong enough to overcome the circumstantial evidence cited in the OP.
How would you explain away the point about crop dusters, Collounsbury?
I believe other points included the apparent domestic origin of the strain, apparent initial targets, departure from al-Qaeda pattern in both methodology and style, matches to known prior ‘blame it on dem ferriners’ plots.
[quote]
The letters were dated American-style, 9/11/01 rather than international style, 11/9/01. Weak evidence in my view. It doesn’t take much to observe that difference in styles and to adjust your usage depending on your location. I use the international style when I am traveling; no reason to think Middle Easterners wouldn’t be clever enough to use the American style while here.
[/qutoe]
Quite right, on the other hand the literacy issues etc. in re the letter raise questions about the writer. Of course that could well be spoofing.
But you will note that in that thread I simply used this as a point that the perps were not transients but acclimatized. I stand by that.
True, but again I believe the larger point is that for the two people in the thread with some exposure to this, the phrasing just doesn’t seem quite right. Rather like someone aping rather than the real deal.
Again, my argument in that thread was for the impression that it was either domestic as in TMcV or perhaps a domestic al-Qaeda sympathizer.
Contorted argument? Rarely I have I seen so much abuse of Occam’s Razor. See my comments in the other thread on that. Now, as for the displacement to Florida and NJ: (a) it strikes me as a rather large and unsupported *supposition * that the ‘Christian Identity’ folks are only found in Idaho. Check on that, for example the KKK and other supremacist organizations have been operative in nearby PA, in Long Island. Minority, sure. There, yes. Same for Florida, esp Panhandle. (b) displacement in and of itself does not strike me as unlikely * per se *, as the story of our microbiologist shows him getting around quite a lot. Indeed, he was clearly no backwoods yokel who would have a hard time
In short, it rather strikes me that you’re relying on stereotypes rather than data.
Evidently you do not think so, given your a priori assumptions. I don’t see those assumptions holding, of necessity.
What about it? It’s neither evidence for nor against. I am sure the al-Qaeda people have considered all kinds of types of attacks including biological. As have the Christian Idenitity/Supremacists. There are a whole spectrum of people who’ve considered things. That’s not proof of the specific act.
Now you will note that I have not excluded this possibility (that is some al-Qaeda involvement) however I strongly doubt a direct Atta connection for multiple reasons including the cell structure issue.
In re the crop dusting itself, given that it is a completely different delivery method, that we have no substantive evidence that it was pursued and that the Iraqi supposed connection in re Anthrax seems to be dead or dying, this is not a data point. Unless one wishes to abstract away from all the problems.
I might add that my understanding is that you need liquification for crop dusting, which would appear to be a different issue than the apparant method of distributing Anthrax. However, I would think that we need to look up the technical issues in this regard. In any case, it appears to be a rather different technique requiring different art.
All in all, it strikes me that you don’t want it to be a domestic issue. The evidence --as opposed to assumptions-- is not such that it allows one to make very strong conclusions in very many directions – other than the perps are clearly at home in the USA. But that doesn’t tell us much.
). Nonetheless it is true that due to both polical and cultural realities, along with the cicumstances such as you descibe, the Muslim world is at present more prone to such distortions. Which is yet another obstacle to dealing with the dangers that face us.