Unless you are advocating the adoption of these standards into English law, how are they relevant?
If those particular perpetrators are muslim, it does no harm to open one’s mind to the muslim point of view. Instead of condemning the entire religion. And as you can see, they have severe penalties.
I would not suggest these being incorporated into our law, and possibly the European Court of Human Rights would forbid crucifixion, but if it is clear their religion condemns their acts, then I think the media should be allowed to also ( if it also condemns such acts ).
As for persuading western women of the necessity of never leaving the house except under male supervision, this also is unlikely to be made law.
There may be something in that.
There seem to be some fullsome apologies being made by the police and local authorities for an attitude that in the past did not think this was an issue that merited a high priority and the lack of support for the victims and their families who were targeted by criminals.
Difficult kids from broken homes mixing with local criminals may be a drain on resources but it was pretty short sighted to ignore them when they fall into patterns of abuse. I read in the report that some of the victims later went on to be violent abusers themselves. Social problems cascade down the generations unless something is done to break the cycle.
It seems in this case, there was one small agency of youth workers ‘Risky Business’ who did have the right approach to these kids, but they were regarded as scaremongers and a nusiance by the police and as ‘treading on their patch’ by senior social workers.
Institutions have a tendency to decide their own priorities and become self referential.
It makes me wonder, where those responsible for this organisation failure have ended up. No doubt they have well paid jobs in other authorities. How many other screw up are there?
The recommendation is for a national body for child protection to be set up with a standardised reporting system so one area can be compared with another and patterns of abuse identified.
Some good may come out of this scandal and I suspect there will be announcements soon. Obviously this report has been sometime in the making and I guess the government was expecting it, so they have some new policy prepared already.
Not only were the perpatrators mostly black*, but so were the victims. And that’s part of why this sailed below the radar for so long.
- In the UK, Pakistanis are considered “black”.
Really ? I have never heard of anyone in Britain who considers Pakistanis or any other Middle Easteners ‘black’.
Well, Greater Middle Easterners.
:eek::rolleyes:
Since this is not the pit, I will actually have to be polite and explain things in relation to your ignorant and buffoonish statements. Have you actually followed any of the cases except in the bloody Daily Mail? If you had, you would have realised that your meme us about 10 years too old. Let’s see, Anver Daud Sheikh, was convicted by a jury with opinions such as yours back in 2002. Unfortunately, it turned out that the allegation were made up and it only took 4 years to release on appeal.. But, hey he is of the wrong extraction, has a funny beard, it’s only a few months after 9/11 and even if he is not guilty, here, I will feel better if he is off the street, let’s not be politically correct eh Casdave.
(R v Sheikh, Anver Daud 2006 EWCA (Crim) 2625
More to the OP, Operation Yewtree (the Metropolitan Police’s investigation into historic claims after the Saville debacle), has resulted in lots of high profile investigations and arrests, but precious fee trials and convictions. Only IIRC, Max Clifford and Rolf Harris have been convicted and there are questions about their convictions too.
Hang on, I read the same post as you and found nothing contentious in there. Consider casdave’s final statement.
Isn’t this true? isn’t this one of the points made in the report itself? and does not the uncovering of the Savile cases et al show how it has been possible in the past for allegations to be subject to pressures other than the strength of the case?
As for casdave’s experience with the behaviour of certain sub-cultural groups…well, If you chose not to listen to him because of instinctive distaste (which I share) are you not falling into exactly the same trap as the authorities in Rotherham or the HR wonks in the BBC etc. etc?
Complete nonsense - where on earth did you get this idea from?
Since casdave is, on his own say-so, of swarthy foreigner extraction (though I don’t know how many generations his SF ancestors have been in our country), and since his job actually entails direct contact with the perps and their peers from other racial groups, I’m prepared to give him plenty of my ear. You? Not so much.
I mean, casdave is a rabid anti-Thatcherite and all that, and I’ve :rolleyes: at him a few times over the years, but here and now it’s fair to say he’s talking from a position of some authority on this subject. You? Fill in the blank.
I’ve also heard remarkably little from casdave over the years that suggests one whit that he’s in cahoots to the white Christian authorities, so I’ll accept pro. tem. that he’s neutral on the matter. You? …But this is getting tedious.
I heard on tv this morning- sorry, can’t remember if it was ‘The Wright Stuff’ or elsewhere that one victim who’d actually brought in clothing as DNA evidence of her rape, had her evidence mysteriously ‘lost’.
This is surely crossing the line into criminal behaviour in this singular instance alone. IMHO, the fact that 1400 children and young people were victims- there must have been widescale lack of reporting, allegations ‘ignored’ and complicity by the police. I can see social work being overwhelmed or any of their own concerns being ignored, again by the police. However, I doubt anyone will face criminal charges- certainly not any police officers. Maybe one or two token abusers. This refusal to prosecute police, politicians and the wealthy is a common theme even today. Fraud, misuse of public funds- get a shrug, a forced apology and swiftly forgotten. But someone who finds themselves needing help through benefits due to a serious illness or accident is treated as a potential benefits fraudster as soon as their phone call to the DWP is picked up. No party has the guts to actually change the status quo.
As for foreign abuse scandals, I watched a horrifying documentary on the Belgian murder/abuse cases. The worst part was probably the revelation at the end that further investigations (it was suspected that a number of high profile legal types and politicians were involved) had been deliberately blocked.
There is definitely a cultural issue ingrained in male Pakistani culture, quite aside from Muslims. Britain has Muslims from all over the world. Turkish Muslims don’t seem to have the same misogyny but they’re also much more integrated from the moment of arrival. Again, from tv and newspapers (no sources at hand) there is the view among those abusers that white girls and women are not worthy of the same respect/treatment as females of their own culture, and even that is on a sliding scale depending on how ‘virtuous’ the female is. There’s been a swing towards an extreme conservatism (not necessarily linked to extremism) particularly towards acceptable female clothing and behaviour. It’s not unusual to see little girls wearing a hijab. If you see photos of school girls from around the Muslim world, it’s perfectly normal in North Africa and the western side of the middle east for to have no little girls wearing the hijab and a good proportion of teens without a hijab and all wearing jeans.
I’m not debating the hijab. Just noting my own observations reading about Scouting around the world and I find it eyebrow raising…
Like many others, on this message board, and in the wider world, I have an almost instinctive visceral personal reaction when I read this report, and other similar events over in Lancashire, such as in Burnley, and other places.
However, this internalised reaction is not the civilised or objective way to look at this, and that’s when you have to attempt to take a more dispassionate view.
I absolutely knew I would get some reaction to my comments, hence you notice that I pointed out how defensive I had been in my posts.
Here are the facts, it is extremely difficult to comment on groups, especially when they are extracted mainly from certain communities for fear of being shouted down as being racist.
I have been investigated a number of times due to false accusations made by prisoners who have cried ‘racism’ when it turns out I have given direct orders to miscreants to follow my instructions and orders to carry out work in accordance with my duties and role as a prison workshop supervisor.
When investigating officers have turned up and seen me for the first time, and noted that I am from a similar extraction as those making the accusations it always comes as a surprise.
That allegations of wrong doing must be investigated is a given, or we fail in our duties to those from discriminated groups, however there never seems to be any common sense involved to moderate the process so the investigation has to go through to the bitter end through all the implied criticisms until the subject is finally cleared - without apology or acknowledgement of the falsehood of the accusation.
Asians in prisons see complaints and allegations of racial discrimination and abuse as a weapon in the on-going saga of control in prisons, and its hardly surprising that prisoners from other national extractions actually resent the Asian over use of the complaint system.
Bear in mind that many of these are the very same individuals that have been convicted and incarcerated for the exact crimes that we are now talking about.
We have a national problem in that minorities are hugely under represented within institutions such as police, social work, prisons or other agencies with safeguarding responsibilities.
It is as if those agencies and systems do not attract those communities as workers, it is a symptom that these communities do not engage in national institutions at the supervisory and over sight roles, and yet such minorities are heavily over represented in the unskilled and low paid work, such as cleaners, hospitals, transport systems etc.
I do think that organisations such as the Police do see such communities as an underclass, beneath the dignity of their protection, and this is not a new attitude at all.
I personally had this experience when I lived on a sink hole estate whose name I shall not mention. A near neighbour was taken in for questioning whilst his home was left unsecure, I called the police because it was being looted. Eventually the person was released - there was never any prospect of any criminal charge since no offence had been committed. When he returned his house was almost bare, quite reasonably he made a complaint, and cited my call to the police about his home being emptied out.
His complaint got nowhere, he was actually told informally by the Superintendent of the local police station that ‘What do you expect, that’s how the people of South XXXXXXXX live, they steal from each other’
That seems to be the view of police, there are underclasses to whom the protection of the law does not extend. When it comes to black on black crime, crime in council estates, crimes by one minority upon another - they just don’t care.
Asian males are merely exploiting this, and the cultural background trends them toward this sort of behaviour - I will not put it down to religion because Islam does not permit this sort of activity - despite the hard-line interpretations from some of its practitioners.
I still have the same question for everyone who reads this message board, where the hell were the community leaders? Why is it that there is never ever any condemnation or whistle blowing from them?
Even RCC made lukewarm gestures towards condemnation, from the Asian community we get absolutely nothing, and don’t forget that Asian girls are far more vulnerable in these closed communities - there is a cultural unwillingness to even see what is happening, and in Asian communities females are frequently seen as second class.
A community leader was being interviewed on Sky News before lunch. He was adamant that the blame lay squarely with the abusers then with the police and council. That this abuse was unknown in his community and if it had been, something would have been done about it… He was also trying to downplay the proportion of Pakistani men involved.
When will they (in particular the Muslim Council of Britain- which is self-appointed and unelected- but the go-to people for comments from the UK’s Muslim community) learn that it’s okay to admit to crimes/wrong doing by community members- and then do something concrete about preventing it happen again. Just instantly disowning the person and telling the rest of us we’re being Islamophobic isn’t an answer. It passes the blame and the culture of denial and abuse continues ie the RC Church. They’ve taken weeks before even publishing a statement condeming ISIS/IS…
I should add that children and indeed adults, regardless of ethnicity, remain at most risk from sexual abuse and rape from their own extended families rather than grooming or being assaulted by a stranger in the street. And even if that abuse is known and not tolerated, it may still be kept within the family and unreported.
I’m going to use a personal example of how abuse can be ‘tolerated’- although not why.
I was fortunate in that I was only the victim on domestic violence (physical occasionally, mentally daily) from a younger, adult sibling when homeless and suffering severe depression. I blurted this out to my otherwise excellent doctor at the time but not a question was asked or leaflet given. In trying to escape via new housing, my mother told me not to mention the hitting as she didn’t want to air ‘our family’s dirty laundry’. Thank God I did as it the Housing Officer was brilliant and it did help getting us rehoused quickly and it’s had a very positive effect on the improvement of my depression.
That was 6 months + ago. A few days ago, we met an acquaintance of my mother’s in the street she hadn’t met in a few years. While filling her in on what’s been going on, she explained our move as because my sister and I ‘couldn’t get along’.
I still have to deal with my abuser coming to our house most days as we care for her daughter due to her shift work. Since mum’s in denial, after consulting with my MH support people, the only thing I can do is minimise contact with her to minimise my stress and not be in the same room as her. I should add that my mother works in the care profession and in 99% of all other instances I come from a good, supportive, hardworking, considerate of others, home- non-religious but still influenced by the post-war protestant upbringing of my mum’s childhood. Lord only knows what’s going on elsewhere.
One of them is now Yorkshire police commissioner - and intends to stay in the post. (Though with any luck he’ll be booted out eventually)
We don’t consider them middle-easterners either. They’re Asians.
This hasn’t been helped by the number of loony websites [ similar to that Canadian chap who regularly announces the Queen of England is being condemned by some international court ( of his own invention ) for killing children back in the 1960s ] that state the Belgian Royal Family and other notables there, take stray children on to private estates and hunt them to death. Typical republican propaganda.
Well, if you look at the link in my post you can see the White House has reformulated the area into the ‘Greater Middle East’, including some surprising countries in such.
The Australian poster who thought we think they are black may possibly have been deceived by a usage of the early 19th century when some ignorant Britons, mainly of the lower classes, called some Indians, and Aborigines, ‘black fellows’. This doesn’t mean they thought them related to Africans, nor actually that they held racialist beliefs.
Racialism was more a thing of the upper classes and intellectuals, such as Galton, if it existed at all. There was plenty of xenophobia, but 19th century British people did not discriminate very much. More so towards the approach of the 20th century; but that’s progress for you.
From what I’ve read (and based on what I’ve generally noticed about how the wider population of the UK communicates with more insular communities, the problem is partly over-reliance on “community leaders” as conduits.
There is a debate to be had on that, the problem is that these communities keep very much to themselves in a way that the indigenous population do not.
Whenever people start speaking about integration we get the pc brigade out in force, as if what is being proposed is some sort of ‘Britishness’ test.
My own view is that if you cannot communicate in the native language, you then have little recourse but to look inward to your own community. I really think we are doing them a disservice by making services accessible by providing translators and translated amenities.
The evil perps will exploit this situation in order to cover their activities, the pc brigade will complain that theses communities are being forced to adopt a different lifestyle and culture, but so what? We have third generation immigrants who cannot speak English, that is not a situation that should be allowed to continue.
It is all too common for such folk to pretend they cannot speak English in an attempt to avoid being held accountable or even to take part in our national life.
Not of that has a great deal to do with the Rotherham case.
The victims spoke only English, but were unable to communicate with police and social services sufficiently to get protection.
That was not because they could not express themselves, nor because the officials concerned did not understand them. It was because it was because their claims were not taken seriously. They were thought to be unreliable and did not merit any intervention. The police and the social services operate using a system assessment involving thresholds of evidence. Crimes have to meet certain criteria to be recorded. I myself have had great difficulty in reporting crime to the police. They have targets and find it convenient to set the bar to a level so that it makes their figures look good. Want to reduce crime in an area? Easy! Don’t record it unless you really have to.
Social problems similarly only trigger intervention when criteria are met. Chatting to a social worker today, he revealed that their priority is young children. By the age of 14 the level of intervention and support reduces considerably. Why waste resources on them when they will soon be old enough to be outside the criteria for expensive social services? The care options are often downgraded.
What we have hear is a simple case of organisations whose job it was to protect the vulnerable not doing what they were supposed to do.
The police did not want the expense of dealing with political demonstrations by racist parties so they downplayed the racial dimension. They are also acutely sensitive to accusations of racism, largely because of their appalling behaviour in the past. The social service did not want the expense of dealing with difficult teenagers so they tried to dismiss the warnings by youth workers and outreach groups that there were serious cases of child abuse prevalent in the area. The politicians in the local council did not think it was an issue that had any merit either. The Asian community also was keen to keep its own dirty washing private. They put the interests of family reputation and future marriage prospects before the interests of their young women.
They all failed and they let criminal gangs get away with a string of crimes against vulnerable kids. There was not surprise here, there had been report after report highlighting the issue and nothing was done. This was a terrible abdication of responsibility and the duty of care.
I don’t doubt they will look around for any excuse: preserving community relations, budget cuts, unreliable witnesses, other more important priorities.
But the fact is that these do not stand up to scrutiny and it is time for the officials concerned to be held to account and a serious review to held into public policy.
This corresponds with national concerns over the prevalence of people trafficking and modern day slavery.
There are many vulnerable groups who are victims of criminal gangs. In this case it was young working class kids from broken homes in the case of the local social services. There are also other groups that are vulnerable, not least within immigrant communities.
All the communities in the UK have problems, both the indigenous English and the immigrant communities. None are immune to criminality, family breakdown and addictive illness and social exclusion.
What we do about it is important. We pay taxes for these public services and they did not do their job. Helping them make excuses for doing nothing in no way deals with this scandal.
As an aside, I discussed child protection a lawyer who specialises in such cases in the UK courts. He tells me the UK has actually a very high reputation for developing policies regarding child protection that are widely copied in other countries. So it makes me wonder what it is like in other countries.
You would not believe it listening to the catalogue of failure in Rotherham, but the policy framework is there. It just needs to be implemented correctly by the appropriate bodies.
I don’t see that going over the gripes from the Daily Mail regarding various groups ‘playing the system’ is any help here, it is just a distraction.