What is a Christian?

And Jesus saith, “And you, Simon, son of Jonah, who do you say that I am?”

And Simon answered and said to Him, “Verily, thou art the Second Person of the Trinity, co-equal in substance with the Father and the Holy Ghost, being verily God and man in hypostatic union, one unified person and will in two natures conjoined and yet not conmingled, co-eternal with the Father, co-equal with the Father as regards thy Godhood and yet subordinate to Him as regards thy manhood, the same being one Christ whereal.”

And Jesus saith unto Him, “Say what?!”

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The earliest creed was almost certainly, “Jesus is Lord.” Anyone who was prepared to accept Jesus as Christ and Lord, and to follow His commandments, was welcomed as a follower of the Way.

As time passed, the definitions of the Holy Trinity and of the Two Natures in Christ became spelled out in inordinate detail, each guarding against the bad effects of a heresy. (And to do justice to the early Fathers, this was not philosophical infighting about nitpicky definitions to them; they saw the negative effects on the faith of the various heresies, and their definitions of orthodoxy were intended to protect against those bad effects, not to play exclusionary games.

Most modern Christians of denominational allegiance adhere to some formulary founded on the Nicene Creed and Act V of the Council of Chalcedon defining the nature(s) of Christ. The Assyrians and the non-Chalcedonian Oriental Orthodox (Copts, Jacobites, and Armenians) are working ecumenically towards definitions and formulae that will allow them to bring their historical understanding into union with the Catholics and Orthodox.

Many Protestant groups prefer Articles and Statements of Faith to the ancient creeds, but the content relative to the Trinitarian and Christological issues is nearly always very close to or precisely identical.

There are exceptions to every rule: the United Pentecostal Church holds to what is essentially Unitarian doctrine; our old friend His4Ever was opposed to the Chalcedonian definition for several years before finally grasping and accepting it.

But in general, most Christian groups define themselves as Trinitarian and Chalcedonian in doctrine.

This does not mean, however, that individual understandings are obliged to subscribe to that theology, on pain of being called non-Christian.

“Jesus died for your sins” does not mandate an Anselmian understanding of how someone both God and man mediated the offense which man was obliged to pay but only God could. It simply says that in some manner Jesus through his death was able to atone and bring back to unity God and man.

And so on. For all the formularies.

I’m prepared to accept anyone who has an understanding of who Jesus was (historically) and what he taught, and who in consequence wishes to follow him, as a Christian, and let the theological details work themselves out over time. This does not mean I wish to water down the rich theological understanding built up over centuries – just not use it to bar the door to someone seeking after Jesus.

The vast majority of christians I know don’t have anywhere near the historical background you have. They don’t study beyond what is taught to small children in grade school. They don’t discuss religion with anyone…ever. They don’t attend church. Many made communion when they were children and then pretty much walked away from it from a church-going standpoint. And they call themselves christian. Do they count?

The OP is not a Christian. Christianity necessitates some kind of belief in Jesus as a divine or supernaural being. I wouldn’t say it has to be a trinitarian belief but a completely non-theistic, non-supernatural view of Jesus would not be a “Christian” position in any sense of the word as it has ever been traditonally understood.

My beliefs are pretty much the same as Lute’s (with the exception of seeing any evidence that the Big Bang was “not an accident”). I think Jesus was probably a historical person. I am also quite attracted to some of the sayings and teachings attributed to him but I don’t see how that makes me a Christian any more than believing there was really a Mohammed makes me a Muslim.

I haven’t decided. :slight_smile:

If we asked the question “What is a Muslim?”, the answer is clear: Someone who is an member of the Islamic faith, which requires specific beliefs regarding God and Mohammed.

If we asked the question “What is a Ba’Ha’i”, the answer is clear: Someone who is an member of the Ba’Ha’i faith, which requires specific beliefs regarding God and Baha’u’llah.

If we asked the question “What is a Slacker”, the answer is clear: Someone who is an member of the Church of the Subgenius which “requires” specific beliefs regarding “Bob”: J.R. “Bob” Dobbs.

At a minimum, a Christian believes in the Christ, aka The Messiah.

That is not to say tha someone might be a member of the “Jesus is a Really Nice Person” club (JIARNPC). But JIARNPCians include muslims, atheists, Ba’Ha’i’s, and all sorts of people who aren’t Christians.

Frankly, I don’t really remember what they are. I remember the Golden Rule and try to follow that–not enough people do these days, IMO.
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Frankly, I don’t really remember Ohm’s Law, or how cables and flexes are colour-coded, or the importance of isolating any circuit you’re working on, what fuses are for, and why appliances should be earthed - and when asked, I don’t sound as if I care enought to learn. But I remember that you shouldn’t take the toaster into the shower.

If I call myself an electrician, am I one?

No, they’re bad Christians - not non-Christians. It’s like C S Lewis’s observation on the use of the term “gentleman”.

Call yourself whatever you want but trying to rewire your house will likely get you or someone else killed. Who am I killing by calling myself a Christian?

If you really believe that then you’re ignoring the words of Jesus in the NT.

I understand what you are saying. Someone can be a selfish dishonest jackass or worse and still claim to believe the creed. So they are officially a **bad ** Christian but still a christian? You were worried about the term being rendered meaningless by anyone being able to claim the title. You example is you can’t claim to be an electrician unless you can walk the walk. If I pay some corrupt clerk to give me an elctrical contractors license does that make me an electrician? Not in my definition. If I go to law school all the time but never take it serious and never learn the law, am I a lawyer simply by attendence?

People who make mistakes, as all people do, but repent and sincerly try to move on and grow in spirit are one thing. Those who worship in word only while keeping their hearts far from Christ may fool others or even themselves but I don’t believe they are Christians as in true followers of Christ and his teachings.

Chrust says repeatedly in the NT that it requires walking the walk. Lip service doesn’t do it.

Well put , I agree.

I know several wonderful folks who are evangelical Christians. They sincerely try to walk the walk and I respect that even though I don’t agree with all their beliefs. My objection is those who see the creed and a list of beliefs before they see the fruits of the spirit which Jesus spoke of, and use that list to exclude others and separate people. IMHO they have in large part missed the point of what Jesus was teaching.

You can’t discount other people’s interpretation of what being christian is, just because you hold a different standard of behavior to yourself. There are so many flavors, and so many interpretations (no one knows the truth about it anyway)…who’s to say who’s right?

I would say that you’re not necessarily a Christian, but you’re not precluded from being one. I agree with Polycarp that the minimum requirement to be considered a Christian is to confess, in one way or the other, that Jesus is Lord. What that means depends on the individual, of course.

While my church is Trinitarian (UCC, which as a denomination is very open to individual freedom of belief), there are plenty of members who feel very much the same way that you do: Jesus was a great religious teacher, a great moral example, but not the Son of God nor the Second Person of the Trinity, etc. They confess, because they center their lives around following Jesus rather than believing specific articles of faith about him, that Jesus is Lord. And I, while having very traditional beliefs, have no problem calling them Christians because of it.

Now as we’ve seen in this thread, the definition of “Christian” definitely depends on who you talk to. I have one friend, an Evangelical, who is very hung up on heresy. She would probably call you a heretic or even deny you the right to call yourself a Christian altogether. Friar Ted’s definition, although somewhat more restricting than I would like, is actually extremely liberal compared to hers! And she’s not even all that conservative- she allows that Catholics are Christian, for example, while other people I know would not (yeah yeah, I know, I have weird friends).

I’ll go with Nietszche, and say that “the last Christian died on the cross”. This solves the problem rather elegantly, in my opinion, as:
Very few, if any, people (whether they call them selves christians or not) I have met, or even heard about, live perfectly christian. That might be a hard demand, but:
Why call yourself a christian at all? It seems rather elitist for someone who, quite frankly, should believe all people are equal. If Jesus was right, and if he meant that if and only if you live according to him, you will get some kind of glorious afterlife, just live according to him. No need for any fancy word-games, especially not with a word so watered-down as christian.
Besides, and the “christian” lot will LOVE this, I can’t see how it’s possible to strictly follow a book that says one thing one day and opposes it the next. And, how is calling yourself something that you are only in part not watering down the term?

It seems to me that, as others have suggested, at a minimum you would have to believe that he was the Christ in order to be a Christian.

I am taking a bit of flak in this thread for being more generous in my definition than some might like. But I have just two things to say to you: You are, first, about as clueless as to why most Christians of my acquaintance do what they do as it is possible to be, and **I for one do not fucking “follow a book.”

This is Great Debates. Small Archery at Strawmen is down the hall to your right.

And no, I’m not a particularly good Christian. I put sincere effort into trying to be, and occasionally fail. Most of this post is probably the latter, but I’m posting it anyway as a wake-up call to you. The object is not to be perfect; it’s to strive for it. If it were possible to be perfect, you’d find me studying under cmkeller.

Point well taken, sorry. Got carried away and all that.
But it’s a difficult term to define, and I still say we don’t need it.
Though of course, striving for perfection is absolutely everything you can do, and thus not really inferior to perfection. Truly sorry about that, I see it was more offensive than it needed to be.

Because by calling ourselves Christian we express the hope that one day we will be like Christ, not that we are.

I’m with Polycarp (and John The Evangelist)

1Jo 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

I’ll add a belief in Substitutionary Atonement - i.e. that Jesus died for our sins, and that through His sacrifice we can be freed from death (judgement, damnation, call it what you will).

But we carry the name of Christ to remind us of who we hope to be like, in the fullness of time and our salvation.

Si (who does not always bear the name Christian well)

Another viewpoint might be in order, and one which polycarp might agree with. There is a lot of people about these days using the word christian either as a pillow or to attack others they think of as less christian. To this I conclude that:
“good” christians (who truly strive towards being more christlike) don’t really need the term, and
“bad” christians (who enjoys the power the term gives them) abuse it.
As a determinist (rather a stricter term, by the way) I can’t really blame anyone for any of this, but my point is that the term seems useless, and even dangerous.

Ah, but what about those of us Christians who don’t accept the substitutionary atonement theory (and I’m one of them) but prefer the “Christus Victor” theory held by the entire Eastern Church and now by many liberal Protestants? Other liberal Christians prefer the Moral Influence view.

So basically, it’s hard to be exclusive when defining “Christian”, because we are a very diverse body of people! I think Polycarp put it better than I ever could, so go reread his post instead of focusing on mine. :slight_smile:

I agree. It’s already so watered down, and the fact remains, no one knows who’s right and who’s wrong, so it isn’t fair to pass judgement on anyone with regard to how “christian” they are. There may be a general concensus, but it’s based on nothing…except the bible, which all christians follow to a degree. But since it wasn’t written by christ, it doesn’t really count.

Ultimately? Only Jesus can say who truly follows him but he does give us some fairly good guidelines. I have no problem with someone who is sincerely trying to follow and their interpretation differs from mine. I am aware of my own shortcomings and how much more I need to understand. I try to honor the journey in others as well. For those who invoke the name of Jesus and yet fail to grasp and express the very basics of love of your fellow man and don’t even seem to try, I have little patience. One of the shortcomings I spoke of, I suppose. Still, It is not a situation where anything is acceptable. Jesus said very plainly that those who worshiped him with lip service only but failed to grasp the spirit of love he brought were none of his.