There were. Do any still exist?
There’s already been interesting points made on this. I’d add that I can believe Jesus died for our sins and through him we can be freed from death, and still not believe in Substitutionary Atonement. {Which I don’t} I find it an unfortunate theology which only distracts from what Jesus actually taught.
I think it streching it a bit to imply that pepole can do pretty much anything and call it Christian. I think we need to be cautious about judging others period. It’s about practicing forgivness. That doesn’t mean we can’t look at someone’s actions and make a judgement call on where their heart is.
The bible may have said that, but we really don’t know what, if anything Jesus may have said on the subject.
That is technically true. We don’t know for sure if Jesus actually existed. But the thread is specifically about Christianity so I think it’s reasonable to refer to the words of Jesus in comparison to Christian doctrine and tradition. I was speaking of quotes attributed to Jesus in the NT which most Christians would accept as reasonably accurate. Pointing out they may not be isn’t relevant to the thread.
All organized religions have (for want of a better word) a “group identity” component; a “self identity” component; and a core set of beliefs, all of which go towards determining identity.
By “group identity”, I mean conforming with the rituals, in some cases dress and manners, that identify oneself to others as belonging to that religion - going to church, mosque or synagogue, wearing a cross or a yarmuke, keeping kosher (or not), being circumsized (or not), etc.
By “self identity” I mean how important it is for the individual to believe that they belong within a certain identity. A person may (for example) believe themselves Jewish ‘by ethnicity’ even though they don’t keep kosher, go to synagogue, etc.
By “core beliefs”, I mean believing in the doctrines and ethical values espoused by the religion.
What is interesting in this debate is that pretty well all of the debaters have focused on “core beliefs” as being the defining feature of Christianity as an identity - with of course the unfortunate effect that there is little agreement as to what these “core beliefs” are. In real life, the other two aspects are probably just as important for many people.
Lute, you sound like a Christian to me. I think the term covers a whole lot of territory! And yes, sometimes others may be confused by their narrow definitions. But it really isn’t up to us to have a say over someone else. So in the long run of things, our opinions don’t matter. Yours does.
Nobody, perhaps. But that only demonstrates that in some circumstances it’s harmless to call yourself something you are not. I thought your question was “Am I a Christian?”; not “Is there any reason why I should not call myself a Christian?”.
Fascinating. I wish I were a better Bible student, that I might know where Jesus ever used the word “Christian”.
Pretty much. They are at least aware of what being a Christian actually entails. That they continually fail to live up to what a Christian ought to do is not only a sad reflection on human nature but commented on by Paul himself. The church is packed to the rafters with bad Christians, including Polycarp and myself, as either of us would be the first to admit. But in a world of sick people, we’re meek enough to admit that we need to see the doctor.
Nor by mine. Did I not imply that anyone who calls himself an electrician had better be well-versed in the trade? Over here that means you must acquire a City & Guilds, not from a corrupt clerk but by demonstrating competence in examinations.
Assuredly not; and I did not say that he who attends church and closes his ears and mind to all that is said therein was a Christian.
Agreed. But I did not say that lip service was sufficient, either. It’s just that, if you happen to walk some part of the walk, such as by following the Golden Rule… that which you can remember of it… sometimes… and think Jesus was a wise teacher but, when it comes down to it, don’t display much interest in learning what he said – then you may accidentally occasionally do what Christ would have you do, but you’re no more a Christian than the man who, by the law of averages, must sometimes wire a three-pin plug correctly, is an electrician.
Thanks. You got there first. (Amazingly, we’re forty-odd posts in without the usual suspects turning up to tell us what a pile of poo the whole subject is.)
In the longest run of things, Lute’s opinion doesn’t matter either. God’s does. :shrug:
As I see it, Jesus didn’t consider himself any more a deity than any other human.When accused of Blasphmey he said"Why is it you say I blaspheme when I call God my father,when your fathers did" He was refering to the 81st or 82d Psalm depending on what version you use; when the Psalmist said,"don’t you know you are gods, sons of the most high?Speaking to one person he would say you are god son(or gaughter )of the mosy high.
The first Christians were not known as Christians they were followers of Jesus,the title came much later
Monavis
Comon now. This is a pointless comment. When someone claims the title of Christian they are saying I believe in , or I follow Jesus Christ. Those who claim the title by heritage and do little else are not Christians IMHO except in that “I come from Christian heritage” way.
Those who actually attend and believe themselves to be followers are the ones I’m talking about.
I understand that. We can fail to live up to the perfection of Christ even while we are striving to grow and understand what our potential really is. If someone never repents of selfishness or dishonesty and makes no effort to be changed by their so called beliefs then they are not followers of Christ. As I said , In Mat 7 Jesus speaks to people who believed they were his followers , had done some nifty stuff in his name, and tells them that unless they are walking the walk they are not his followers.
Here’s where the word meaningless becomes interesting. If someone claims to be a follower of Jesus then I think they have some obligation to try and learn what they can about him. Unfortunately too many simply accept what someone else tells them rather than make the effort themselves. Rather than findi9ng their own path through study prayer and introspection they seek the approval of their group and accept what is taught without much question.
So if someone is taught by a bad electrician they will become bad electricians. You make a valid point. I think those taught by really bad electricians or who simply never paid attention will not pass the test. They may come and say, “Hey I know all about that stuff” but I still don’t want them wireing my house even though they claim the title.
It seems to me you kinda did say that. If someone is continually a selfish dishonest jerk and still attends regularly you called them a bad christian but still a christian. Have they not closed their ears and minds? The belief that disturbs me is that simply accepting Christ as saviour and making any meager effort to be nice {at least to the folks you attend church with} is enough. Some believe that since they recognize Christ as saviour they are forgiven for making little effort to actually live up to his teachings but others who are genuinely loving compassionate people who have been turned off by organized religion are damned not because of whats in their heart but simply because they don’t believe the correct beliefs. It’s an incredibly shallow and incorrect interpretation of what Christ taught.
Again, I question that. In Mat 25 Jesus rewards people for their compassionate spirit and they question him. “Lord when did we see you?” and he responds “Whenever you did it for the least of these brothers of mine you did it for me”
The fact that these people didn’t know why they were being rewarded might indicate that they were not followers of Christ but simply embraced the principles of his teaching. It certainly indicates that Jesus was stressing that our actions reveals the spirit within, rather than simply what creed we claim to believe
True. 
We each must decide what is meaningful to us.
I agree. Jesus came to give us a living example of what we can be. The only begotten son concept seems to convince people that we aren’t *really * expected to live as he lived.
I believe you have just begged the question, cosmosdan, since we were discussing what being a Christian actually means and whether merely acting on some half-understood tenets of Jesus counted, or whether there was more to it than that.
These may well be Christians who need the theological equivalent of a good kick up the arse. There are Biblical precedents, if I read the Epistles right. And again, we’re singing from the same hymn-sheet if you’re saying that mere attendance isn’t enough in the eyes of God. One can, I think, be a Christian and still have a lot of work to do.
Agreed. Perhaps we’re arguing from different premises. I’m of the view that “Christian” is a merely descriptive term, and not in itself any guarantee that we’re living as Jesus would have us. (But hopefully, whatever the Christian’s faults, ignorance of what he ought to be doing is not one of them. Paul again, “the good that I would, I do not” and all that.)
Very true. The image of Jesus as a shepherd does not imply that all his flock should be unthinking sheep.
Yes. Although in my rather simplistic model there would be no “bad” electricians: one either grasps the trade enough to be accredited, or one does not. It’s a little harder to set the necessary papers to qualify to be Christians - although those churches that require you to learn a catechism in order to be baptised or confirmed are giving it a fair go. Not that this will make a good or conscientious tradesman out of the man with the certificate - but at least he knows how to wire your house, even if he is too lazy or dishonest to do it.
Assuredly. But now we’re getting into deep doctrinal waters. Some believe that, as Paul says, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Others look, with great justification, at what Jesus himself said about practical works as a demonstration of how the Word has taken root in the heart. I myself am fond of the saying that we should pray as if prayer was all that mattered, and work as though work was all that mattered.
Unfortunately, despite liking the saying, I frequently do neither. :smack:
If you must start somewhere, I think it is with the core beliefs: if you don’t adhere to those, you are not a Christian. But:
it is entirely possible that God will accept us whether or not we call ourselves Christians!
True. But the Church has spent many centuries on such matters, and we don’t necessarily do ourselves any favours by trying to reinvent the wheel.
Or say rather, Jesus came to say “Of course you can earn the Father’s favour by your own merit. All you have to do is live as I live.”
But he also came to offer a Plan B for those of us who can’t - who commit adultery in our hearts every time the only difference between a lustful glance and the act itself is lack of opportunity; who murder our neighbours in our hearts every time it is only the law’s restraint that keeps intemperate anger from becoming actual manslaying.
I was illustrating why your electrician comparison doesn’t apply.
No, you weren’t. You pointed out that someone who calls himself an electrician, but does not have the qualifications or expertise, endangers someone else if he practices as an electrician. You rhetorically asked whom you would harm by calling yourself a Christian. All that does is show that in some circumstances it is dangerous to call yourself something you are not, and in others it is not dangerous. You did not address the question of whether you are calling yourself something you are not.
Again, Lute, why, if you do not believe in God or Jesus as they are typically accepted by most Christian churches, if you know nothing of Jesus’s teaching except “Whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you…” and do not wish to learn more, if you do not wish to be a member of a church… why does it bother you whether you can call yourself a Christian or not?
(Don’t mistake me for an instant. On the Church’s behalf, my arms are wide open to anyone who does wish to be a Christian, and if I won’t do, “anyone” is welcome to look elsewhere. It is emphatically not a case of saying that you can’t be a Christian if you want to be. Membership is easily acquired.)
You’re right, I should have asked “who am I killing if I call myself a Christian?” I’m not doing anything dangerous if I do, so how can a compiarison to something that is be valid?
Excuse me but I didn’t say that I know nothing of his teaching, I said that I don’t remember. For all we know, I could be following his teacing and not realize it. I also never said that I don’t wish to learn.
True, I regularly attended church from ~5 until 16 and have little interest in returning.
It doesn’t. I was trying to redirect a discussion of if it’s possible for someone–or something–to be Christian witout the religious aspect.
I don’t see how I begged the question. I said your interpretation of a bad Christian denied the words attributed to Jesus in the NT. You responded by noting that Jesus never used the word. I don’t see how that fact is relevant since Christian must mean someone who follows Christ.
Of course. I believe we all do, and progress can be slow. IMHO it requires a willingness to surrender to the spirit and the courage to follow where it leads. It’s not easy while we try to live in the world we have made. As you say, ultimately how hard we are trying , or even if we are trying, is between ourselves and God. I realize I sound pretty judgemental here and I believe in being forgiving but actions and choices do have consequences. If someone acts rashly or it anger or hatefulness, they should be able to see it and ask forgiveness, not only from God but from themselves and any people they have wronged. We needn’t be ashamed of our humanity if we are striving to be grow. I hope I’ve been clear that I’m speaking of those who don’t believe they have a lot of work to do or continue to do hateful things completely unwilling to repent and seek forgiveness with a sincere heart, yet still think of themselves as Christians, even good Christians. Those are the folks I think Christ is referring to when he says “Depart from me” or “They worship me with their mouths but their hearts are far from me”
I think that’s a pretty valid view. There’s lots of degrees of service and surrender and I’m aware of the verses in the NT that speak of problems among new followers of Jesus. Personally when someone says “I’m a Christian” I still can’t tell what that means because the parameters are so broad that they are almost meaningless. In response I have my own parameters. Those who I get the vibe are really trying to incorporate what Jesus taught into their daily lives and their relationship with people in general are true Christians, in the followers of Christ sense.
I see that. I guess I just see it differently. If the guy is too lazy or dishonest to do it knowing how doesn’t mean anything. He could be an electrician if he tried but since he doesn’t try he isn’t one.
To he who knows to do good and does it not" and all that.
Sigh, I know. To me that’s merely one step on the spiritual journey.
I happen to think that much of what Jesus taught was left out of our present day Bible for doctrinal reasons but even with what we have you can certainly find enough to begin the journey. It’s clear that Jesus stressed a personal transformation born from within and the signs of that spiritual transformation is a change in our behavior and how we respond to life’s challenges. We are challenged by our own idiosyncrasies as well as those of others.
Its easy to get distracted by life in general. I wish I had more discipline myself.
My own theory is that since God is the well from which all love is drawn , those who draw even unknowingly still drink the living water.
Adhering to the core beliefs does mean acting on them not simply believing them.
In all those centuries the church still has no real consensus. There is only one goal even though there may be many viable paths to that goal. Helping me to discover the worthiness of the goal is a good thing. Trying to shoe horn me into a path that isn’t truly my own relationship with God, is not helpful , nor does it honor the journey. I think the fact we have so many varied beliefs and denominations is an expression of that failure and lack of understanding about the unique nature of the spiritual journey. Yet, those who split from one church to pursue something that is more meaningful to them persist in not offering that privilege to others.
I don’t believe there is a plan B. I believe the promise that the Holy Spirit will lead us to all truth. We return to God by surrendering totally our misconceptions and fear to the truth and love in the Holy Spirit.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
I think of this passage with Paul’s words in Corinthians. Now we know in part but then I will know as I am known. Completely. I don’t think we get this as a reward for a meager effort and a feeling of, "I just can’t help it I’m only human"I believe we have to take the necessary steps.
Well, this is off topic so I’ll cease and desist. I appreciate our discussion.
Well, faith is not a constant thing, for many people. People are weak, and fail, and fall away from faith.
The real test of who is a Christian is: “Who does Christ think is a Christian?” So, ask Him if you can be. Then your faith is a secondary consideration, important only to you, and Christ. And the part you have to depend on is His faith.
Tris
It must; that’s a necessary condition. The bone of contention though was whether “following Christ” alone is enough to call someone a Christian, and what we mean by “following Christ”.
[cosmosdan]Well, this is off topic so I’ll cease and desist. I appreciate our discussion.
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As do I, and hopefully we’ve given the OP food for thought.
By considering the attributes necessary to be considered a qualified tradesman; you cannot simply become one by calling yourself one. Foolish of me to happen to have picked on a skilled trade where practising the trade could have lethal consequences, but the lethality of the false claim was not part of my argument. Perhaps I should have drawn a comparison with accountancy, or something.
Odd. Could I say I don’t remember whether I know how to solve a quadratic equation or not? Or don’t remember whether I can conjugate a Latin verb or not? Either I can or I can’t.
'Tall depends upon what you mean by “religious aspect”. To me it would be foolish to claim to be a student of Euclid without reading his writings on geometry and working out a number of problems; or to claim to be a student of Shakespeare and not read his writings. So I think Bible study is indispensible, for a start, so that you can well acquaint yourself with what Jesus actually said and did.* There are very few topics on which you can rely just on what “everybody” knows.
*Yes, yes, the usual disclaimers. The point is we don’t have a better guide.
And once you start reading what Jesus said, you may find that it’s not enough to be generally well-disposed to your fellow man, but that you must pay serious attention to the two Great Commandments: “Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbour as yourself”. You may find that Jesus emphasises prayer and communion with God as well as the occasional spot of doing as you would be done by. You may find that he calls upon you to exercise whatever gifts you have been given to the greater glory of God.
You may not wish to join a church of any sort. Similarly our hypothetical (and by now tedious) electrician might see fit not to join a trade association or subscribe to any trade magazines. He might not wish to attend training courses to keep his skill-set honed and bang up to date. But how would you advise the would-be electrician? :dubious:
@Triskadecamus: Excellently put!
Very good point, Tris. Under somewhat different circumstances, I’ve drawn the mental picture of Jesus covering a Billy Joel song:
…remembering that the rest of that song is the obverse side of the coin to George Beverly Shea’s old revival number, “Just as I am.”