What is a PhD in Philosophy worth in today's world?

Great Debates
1

Greetings Dopers,

A little background. I live in NYC and have been working in finance for the last 6 years. Finance has never been my passion and I have always wanted to return to school at some point, to take my education to the highest level possible. I have spent the last couple years auditing various courses at the New School and Columbia here in NYC have developed an abiding passion for philosophy. At this point I’m considering leaving finance to go to graduate school in philosophy.

My question: If it is assumed that money is not a high priority for me BUT I do need to work after I complete my PhD, what are my prospects? What can I do with a PhD in Philosophy, outside teaching? My preference would be to teach, but every book I have read indicates an extremely competitive environment in teaching at universites, and I would like to have some other career options.

Any ideas or experiences any dopers want to share would be appreciated. I put this in Great Debates because I’m hoping to generate some discussion about the value of a Philosophy PhD in today’s world.
Thanks!

2

“How can you know if you really want fries with that?”

3

While I assume I understand the point of your comment, I didn’t find it useful.

I know that this is what I truly want to do, but as a husband and a future father I have to keep at least some real-world considerations in mind.

4

“What is the sound of one burger flipping?”

(You had to expect some of these answers, serving up a straight line like that in your OP… :))

Seriously, I’d pursue philosophy as an * interest*, but as you acknowledged-- you have real world considerations to look at… and “more on the way.” In that world, philosophers are in rather low demand.

Can you not deepen your understanding of philosophy without trying to adopt as the “9-to-5” job that puts food on your table? At the very least, I’d pursue the degree, and while doing it, try to better gauge the employment outlook for a newly minted PhD in philosophy.

5

I started grad school in philosophy (UM-Ann Arbor). I know of no way to turn it into a career besides teaching. (I’ve just taken a job in sound electronics and acoustics, myself - turns out philosophy wasn’t what I truly wanted to do after all. :))

However, I can say that the work environment needn’t be all that competitive, depending on where you teach. Of course, one might reasonably expect salary and competitiveness to correlate to some substantial degree. The job market is tight, though, so considering the reputation of the institution that would be granting your degree is advisable.

6

What can I, or anyone, tell you? There are some academic choices which have no, or virtually no, “real world” employment options. Art History may lead to a career in evaluating works of art for insurance purposes, but one must imagine that the prospects are limited. I know an archeologist and a paleontologist, they spend a great amount of time prostrating themselves before ignoramuses begging for grant monies.

I entirely sympathize with the difficulty inherent in your position, and if I had any useful advice, would rush to offer it. But the last mind-numbing temp position I had, there were 5 of us, one Ph.D., two master’s degrees, a recovering addict and myself.

On the bright side, at least you’ve found someone willing to marry a philosopher.

7

Well, I was in finance when she married me. :slight_smile:

That said, she’s a doctor and is ‘relatively’ supportive of the idea…

8

Well, you can get a job as a Philosophy professor. If you’re really good these days, you can get as much fame, glory, wealth and respect as is given to Peter Suber, even if you can’t juggle plungers.

9

There’s always (ugh) law school

10

Well, you could easily join the military as an officer because of your college education.

However, other then jobs for which a general college degree gives you extra consideration or qualifies you for, there’s not a hell of a lot you can functionally do with a philopshy degree, as far as making money is concerned in a tradtional job structure.

Other anvenues:

-Write a book and get it published.
-Get people to pay you for your thoughts.
-Become a stand-up philopsphor.

Seriously, the most sucessful(montarily speaking) philosphers are those who wrote books.

11

Is it just me, or is “PhD in philosophy” a tad on the redundant side?

For the record, I’ve got a BA in philosophy and it has done me just fine in life. Not only did it prepare me for law school, it has really sharpened my debating skills for forums such as this one. But a doctorate? Gee, I don’t know. Maybe you can get a job as an ethithist at a hospital (they’re the ones that help doctors make the life and death decisions, doncha know).

Barry

12

A friend graduating with a PhD in Philosophy already has a publisher for his biography of Hume, which is presumed to be something of a moneymaker. The biography resulted from research on his thesis work. Even so, he’ll always be trying to teach philosophy at a university–you just can’t sustain yourself as an academic author, even when you’re writing for a popular audience.

So, no, there really aren’t any other options professionally as a philosopher. I say this as someone with a degree in it. The academic zealousness required to get a tenured spot is astonishing, and since philosohy, more than most academic fields, only allows you to teach, it’s actually one of the most competitive academic professions.

Go for the PhD part-time, and keep your foot in some other door. Philosophy makes can make one a very clear thinker about everyday life, and a lot of philosophy grads actually do quite well in business. What about financial consulting on the side to keep money coming in?

13

I was thinking of bioethics too, godzillatemple.

14

I’m actually considering this as well, and I’m lucky enough to be married to a future doctor (though one interested in pediatric medicine: one of THE lowest paying fields out there) so that money isn’t a huge concern going forward: after her debts are paid, we’ll be fine, and health insurance is the only thing we both really NEED to be of good quality in our lives.

However, I’m thinking that before I even bother applying somewhere, I actually do some real WORK. I mean, as well as I do on tests, I’m a social retard without relaly strong references, and without the ability to “sell” myself in person at all. And journals don’t just accept articles from nobodies very often though, do they? So the question is: how do you make a switch from a normal job back into academia if you’ve been out of it for a few years?

15

I’ve known three people with Ph.D’s in Philosophy who hedged their bets by taking Master’s Degrees in Library Science and never regretted their decision. The reasons:

1- Library Science is only 1-2 years of graduate work (depending on which school) but a librarian can almost always find a job. (You don’t get rich but you don’t starve either.)

2- Librarianship greatly enhances your own research skills which helps you research your subject deeper.

3- At many colleges, Librarians who have Ph.D.s in an academic subject often have the chance to teach a course in said subject as an adjunct, giving them a foot in the door and some teaching for their resume and putting them a little ahead of others.

16

I’m in a comparable situation to you, working on my PhD in the subject of philosophy (hi, godzillatemple!) besides a full-time job. It’s hard working for a while, but on the other hand a job on the side offers experiences that research doesn’t give. Furthermore it helps you do something useful while inspiration is lacking.

Apos: it is hard for a while to switch back to academia, since you need a different kind of thinking for philosophy. I strongly suggest that you do not completely lose touch during your time in a normal job. I always continued to read philosophy, work on articles (most of which I didn’t finish, but it did keep me involved), give presentations at symposia, discuss with friends. That way, you’ll only have to re-adjust to doing philosophy full-time. Furthermore in that way you may already do some thinking through during your wilderness years.

Back to the original question. A PhD normally only prepares you for the first step in the tenure track, which I assume you are familiar with. This will involve a lot of work (groveling, if you put it negatively) in getting temp jobs teaching and doing research until you have achieved tenure. This preparatory work may at times seem disheartening but from what I understand from friends can be done. If you hate to have to apply constantly for jobs and grants, this is not the road for you. Otherwise it is just part of the job, and most jobs involve some tedious tasks.

Still there will be times when you will not have a grant or position: I’d suggest to try to find a part-time job in your current field. I hope there do exist some functions, maybe not in your current position but possibly as a part-time (or freelance) researcher? It helps to pay the bills and keep you occupied.

After the PhD (and even while working on it) you should work hard at exposure: write articles, go to symposia and conventions, so people know who you are and what you can do. This may help in getting tips about positions, and give you a head start in application procedures.

Another suggestion: you might consider taking a secondary speciailization in business ethics. Since you are familiar in finance, you would have a head start in this area. This could help you get a position teaching or researching this field, and once you have a position somewhere it is easier to branch out to your real interests. Furthermore, you could try to set up a kind of business ethics consultancy (there are others who do this). You might have contacts in the field of finance that could help you here. It would help if you could at least be affiliated to a university (even if without pay).

In the end, tenure is almost a necessity. Writing books may work for some, but most need a basis to start from. Giving lectures and the like doesn’t get you much income. Only if you are really famous you can tour the world, visiting universities on invitation for special chairs.

There are a few people who have gone a different route, turning non-academic publicist, making television and radio programs and writing for the non-professional media. But it is hard to get into that as well.

Good luck!

17

My acquaintances with PHD’s are among the most bitter people I know.

I don’t see why law school is such a horrible compromise for the would-be philosopher. Instead of epistomology, you can take evidence. You can spend countless hours wondering where property rights come from. Or why people should be bound to contracts. etc. etc.

If you get a job as a law professor (competitive, but no more so than as a philosophy professor), you’ll be able to pursue your interest in philosophy and get paid a lot better than a starting philosophy professor.

And if you can’t find a job in academia, there are plenty of real world jobs out there. You can even hang out a shingle.

18

I happened to be married to a philosopher (yes, I knew before I married him that this was his chosen profession. See what mishigas love can get you into?). My husband is currently experiencing the pains of completing both his dissertation (he gets to defend in a few weeks) and finding a job (so far, he’s applied to over 70 schools). Anyway, he’s got some advice for you.

[Mr.DeadJesus speaking]

  1. I have classmates specializing in bioethics. They’re either think-tank headed or, for the one who’s also completing an MD, hospital-board headed. (BTW, there’s a growing number of PhD-MD’s and PhD-JDs.)

  2. I have classmates specializing in political theory. One hopes eventually to work in Amnesty Intl’s leadership, the other some think-tank.

  3. Most of us look for academic positions. Currently 1.6 philosophers apply for every 1 job. Though somewhat disheartening: (a) many are applying from one job to the next, so the actual number of philosophers who get no jobs in academic is smaller; (b) ten years ago the number was 2.7 to 1. Though somewhat heartening: the ratio got better, because 5-6 years ago when currently PhDs on the job market first started, they had few classmates, since the economy was good; and it ain’t so good now, so 5-6 years from now the ratio might shoot up again.

  4. There are random companies looking for philosophers. Some non-profit group (I forget which) is advertising $90K/year for a philosopher to put together some religion-science public dialogue. Some insurance company (I forget which) is paying similar big bucks for philosophers to define necessary and sufficient conditions for diseases–thereby saving them money. I have an acquaintance who’s working for Bayer, too.

  5. I was always told that financial service firms–Arthur Anderson was named–hire philosophy PhDs for senior consulting positions, since our training is specifically in logical analysis of data. Similarly, there’s a healthcare non-profit (Battelle, I think) whose employers are almost all PhDs–in just about every field–who hires us for the same logical-analysis-of-data skills.

Besides post-PhD, a couple of words on PhDing itself:

  1. The hardest thing you’ll ever do.

  2. One of the most rewarding things you’ll ever do.

Though many philosophy PhD’s, or partial PhD’s, quit and go to lawschool (the law school sirens sing until tenure), I know two lawyers who have quit or are thinking of quitting to get a PhD in philosophy.

Best of luck.

PS: Maybe the ‘Profession’ tab (see left half-way down) will be useful: http://www.apa.udel.edu/apa/index.html. There you’ll find which specializations are more likely to get you an academic job. Nonacademic jobs–depending on the area, of course–probably prefer applied ethics (e.g., bioethics, business ethics, legal ethics, maybe political theory/policy).

[/Mr.DeadJesus speaking]

I hope this helps. BTW, my husband is from NY and one of the universities he’s applying to is the U of Alaska in Anchorage. Is Anchorage a nice, decently-populated area with a shortage of IT professionals (I hope)?

19

I can’t think of anything to do with a degree in philosophy besides teach philosophy.

Why can’t you learn as much about philosophy as you want by reading books on philosophy and “thinking about it?”

I never really liked that Hegelian thesis, antithesis, synthesis to thesis loop. Artificial conflict caused by oversimplified analysis of reality.

I think we are taught to be too dependent on school.

Dal Timgar

20

In principle, yes, but in practice most people need the stimulation, work, direction, and feedback that come from being in the field. You miss out on a lot in any activity when you do it all by yourself.

Everyone here is pretty down on professional prospects, but I feel like I should say why I find my own BA honours in philosophy so valuable: just like graduating from a phys. ed. degree pretty much guarantees that your body will be in good shape, there’s nothing like a philosophy degree to work out your mind and leave you with generally clearer thinking for whatever you do next. That’s why philosophers tend to do well in business–they have a fairly accurate perception of the mechanics of it and don’t get so caught up in the illusions that most office dwellers do.

If I had my druthers, I’d make a philosophy degree mandatory for everyone following high school. Few of my fellow graduates had really strong philosophical opinions; most, however, were among the sanest, most level headed people I knew.