Hmm. Running an unidentified ship past a military blockade and then complaining that your ship was rammed. Obviously I do not agree with you about the right or wrong of a military blockade but that is besides the point. Even if the cause was the most just cause in the world, and there was no possible justification for Israelis to be concerned that military supplies might be brought in by an unidentified vessel trying to run a blockade under the cover of darkness, even then yes, it would stupid for those noble freedom fighters to whine that they were stopped and that their boat was damaged.
If I climbed over a security fence that had a sign on it “Warning. Do Not Enter! Private property. Premises Patrolled by Guard Dogs.” and I ended up having a scratch on my ankle at the end of the day then I don’t think I’d be complaining very much. Even if I felt that I had a good reason for going over the fence.
Have to go with the “running a blockade is a bad idea” crowd. Regardless if it was a mission of mercy with Mother Theresa on board the Israelis do not know that and running a military blockade is a good way to get blown up. They are lucky they only got rammed.
You can argue whether Israel is right or wrong all you like but a military blockade is just that. May as well make a dash towards Air Force One and see how far you get and then express surprise (if you live) that you got shot.
Well, yes. In the same sense that American families whine when a member of their family is killed in Iraq or soldiers who are crippled also whine. If you go to a war zone you know you are taking your chances. But I guess it’s just that people like to whine.
I disagree they would not do anything to a private boat of any nationality. No country cares much about private boats. But, OTOH, the Liberty incident was a mistake (or, at least, that’s what they said and what America accepted as an explanation).
Really? What if that security fence was around your house and your family was inside and you knew damn well that it wasn’t your wife and kids who put up the fence and installed the guard dogs?
Gala, I’d still be grateful that I only had a scratch. Even if I felt that it was worth much more than risking a scratch to climb over the fence. Again, I can accept that you feel that the big bad evil Israelis have no right to stop unidentified boats carrying god-know-what in the middle of the night from coming into enemy territory during the course of a military action. They are the Israeli Death Star and therefore anybody doing anything against them is part of the heroic Rebel Alliance if not in fact a Jedi knight.*
But if you get a hangnail trying to take on the Death Star then yes expect to be mocked if you whine about it.
Amazingly sailor I do not hear any military families whining. They are not surprised that their loved ones have been injured or been killed; they knew it was a risk. Sad, yes. Expecting that their injured loved ones get the services they deserve and need yes. Whining? Nope. I have heard none of them whine.
*You really need to hear it sung but I can’t find a link to that.
Of course, you are the one arbitrarily drawing the line between whining and being sad. Noble people as defined by DSeid are sad, pissy little cowards as defined by DSeid whine. Simple.
Sure, McKinney is widely held to be a whack job. Doesn’t mean she’s never done anything right.
I haven’t heard Cynthia McKinney whining about what happened either but I am so glad to know of all American dead, wounded and their families no one has whined or complained about the war and they all feel and believe it was worth their sacrifice. I don’t believe that for one second but we can pretend it is that way for the purposes of this thread. Now I want to see some video of Cynthia McKinney whining. Not just complaining but truly whining. Where can I find it?
No, I really don’t need to hear or even read more glurge. My mailbox gets enough as it is.
And just for the record I want to add that from everything I know about her Cynthia McKinney is an A-hole of the highest magnitude but it is not fair to denigrate what others do for their ideals and exalt what our own people do for their own ideals.
Look Dio the point is very real and very legitimate. The Israeli-Palestinian issue very often gets oversimplified by both sides and the idiocies repeated every thread are tiresome. For the record, I do not hold that everything that the Israeli government does is just. Israel is not blameless. But having serious balanced discussions about these subjects have become impossible to achieve in these fora.
Posters who really by now should actually know more of the facts just repeat the same canards over and over a gain and it is just too exhausting and time consuming to constantly rebut the same crap again and again. I don’t have the time or the energy for it.
This thread was based on my reading mistake - I skipped the word “former”. I’ve apologized for that already. If former Rep McKinney believes that Israel has no right to implement a blockade on Gaza during a military operation and wants to put her life on the line then fine. But if she didn’t realize that running a blockade in an unidentified boat in the middle of the night during a military operation was putting her life at risk, then she (and anyone else who didn’t realize that) was an idiot. I don’t see how that is even a debate. If she thought that trying to run the blockade was the most effective way to get humanitarian aid through, then I also think that she was an idiot. If she was part of an effort to create a show of a US citizen (a former US Representative!) and medical staff getting injured by the “evil” Israeli Navy in order to create propaganda for what she and some of you feel is a noble and just cause akin to the Underground Railroad, then that is pathetic.
Now one can argue the ethics of Israel’s current tactics - which includes destabilizing the ability of Hamas to govern Gaza - and I’ll agree that it crosses a line because it does include a plan to worsen the day to day life existence of an already impoverished people in order to achieve a political end. I think that that tactic is out and out wrong. I’d also argue that it is unlikely to be a productive tactic. My preference would have been for a day or two of bombing taking out tunnels and many of the military targets that have indeed been hit (with amazingly little loss of civilian life given the population density around the targets, I must say), and then backing off. The message needed to be given to Hamas that violating the ceasefire has consequences but then the chance to respond to the message must be given as well. But creating anarchy in Gaza is not in Israel’s best interest IMHO. Hamas may indeed be dedicated to obliterating Israel but they are the only ones able to control the populus. Military responses may be a necessary tool - but it is one that needs to be used in very measured applications - not as a replacement for other tactics. What Hamas was wanting to accomplish by goading Israel into this (and clearly that was the intent of both their rocket attacks and their statements in the preceding days) I am not sure - but Israel should be smarter than to do anything more than the extremely measured slap down.
Don’t worry. I have no hope of convincing you that the truth is not so simple as you imagine it to be. I’ll save my fantasy life for more productive endeavors.
As I have proved with cites the blockade has been in effect for many months, not “during a military operation”. In any case, blockading the supply of humanitarian aid like medicines, fuel, food, etc to the civilian population is, in my book, immoral and criminal.
Again, in the same way that Americans in Iraq should not be surprised when they get shot. The fact that there is a risk known and assumed does not prevent one from complaining about it.
Except that if someone else had done it under similar circumstances for something you agree with then your assessment would be quite the opposite. By the same rule of three you could say American soldiers in Iraq are idiots because they should know by now they are not achiving anything.
My view is that Israeli actions are morally wrong, now and in similar, earlier, actions and that the palestinians are just as wrong. Both sides are very wrong although for different reasons. I don’t know that there is a solution but I would stop defending any of them. Let them sort it out themselves. Both sides are criminal and should not be helped.
It’s ironic that you say the truth is not simple. I agree with you, but my irritation lies with those who always oversimplify things in the other direction. “Israel good - Palestinians bad” doesn’t really describe it either.
My initial thought upon seeing the incident on CNN (before they identified McKinney by name) was “Awesome!”. Even if it was a futile act of symbolism/propaganda, at least somebody was attempting SOMETHING.
And I’d argue that it wasn’t completely futile. It got on CNN, didn’t it? Publicity stunts have their value too. It certainly caught my attention. This was “just another” Israel-Palestine battle to me until this happened, and now, lo and behold, it even spawned a thread here – so I couldn’t have been the only one who found it at least slightly interesting.
Any increase in attention and awareness towards the situation is a good thing, IMHO.
I even felt a little proud when I read her name in the OP… I thought, “Wait, is this the same McKinney I voted for last month?”…
…until I saw this.
Disgusting.
Thank you. This will make me seriously reconsider my candidate, and perhaps party, choice next time.
sailor,
First off, the ongoing on and off again blockades that Israel and Egypt have imposed are a very different item then a more complete blockade during a military action. While a just issue for discussion it is a different subject than this blockade during a military action. As my last post made clear, I think that the tactic of making life even more miserable for Gazans is a poor one for Israel, both ethically and effectively. Israel has no obligation to have open borders or to allow trade across its border with Gaza but that is different than blockading sea trade.
I see no need to repeat myself about McKinney but your analogies really do not hold up. I’ll leave that there as more would be going around in circles.
I’ll also disagree with your assessment that both sides are criminal. I think that such is as oversimplistic and bluntly put, lazy, thinking as thinking that either one is perfectly noble. Real people are rarely all good or all bad. Hamas is looking out for its perceived best interest, which is just not the same as the best interest of Gazans as a whole or Palestinians as a whole, IMHO. Israeli leaders are making what it determines to be in the best interest of Israel’s security and, IMHO, making some serious mistakes along the way. I have no doubt that I see their mistakes as fewer and more understandable than you do, but I see neither side as complete criminals. Both have sides have individuals among them who are idiots and those who just want to get on with their daily lives with hope that their children can grow up without having to worry that tomorrow they may be blown up. I see no reason to believe that Hamas sees that future as their own best interest however. Do you?
Dio when I hear you doing something other than simplistically demonizing every Israeli position I’ll grant you your statement.
Multiple times I have tried to begin discussions here that tried to avoid the tired out knee-jerk “he started it!” “They’re worser!” and tried to focus on how to effectively move on from here. We’ve had threads that dismantled some of the myths that each side hang on to as truths. It doesn’t matter. The rants take over every thread.
Israel has been blocking humanitarian aid for many months now and only allows tiny amounts to get through now and then as it suits them. It is wrong. It is immoral. It is also conveniently ignored by many on Israel’s side.
If you have nothing to say then say nothing but tactics like “I don’t want to repeat myself” or “I do not engage this poster” (used not by you) are a convenient way of not having to engage the substance of the discussion. If you have something to say about the topic then say it, otherwise say nothing. But just giving reasons for not replying to the substance of the dabate is a shitty thing to do because it contributes nothing and is an indirect attack on the poster.
Oh? Which one of the two is not criminal? Because I think bombing civilian populations and blocking them from receiving humanitarian aid is very clearly criminal. So that leaves only Hamas as “not criminal”. I disagree but, oh well.
Speaking of lazy thinking, that’s not what I said. I did not say they are “all bad”. I said they are both criminal and for different reasons. I think this is so undeniably simple that I can’t see how anyone could argue with it. Both sides have committed huge crimes.
That’s the problem. That most people judge depending on what side of the fence they are on and as long as that is the way we judge there cannot be understanding or peace. Our soldiers are noble warriors selflessly serving a higher cause while theirs are plain terrorists and fanatics. Our leaders have the best interests of their peoples at heart, even if they make “ocassional mistakes” while their leaders are corrupt and fanatical terrorists. Talk about simplifying things to the point where they are meaningless.
In my view and to a greater or lesser degree, all the foot soldiers are fanatical and brainwashed and think they are doing good and are very willing to do evil in the name of good. That pretty much describes the soldiers fighting in any conflict.
And, again in my view, the leaders and govrnments who start and who prolong wars are guilty of just that which is a crime in itself.
And the peoples who elect and support such governments and their wars are also guilty of doing just that.
Of the Palestinian, Israeli or American peoples, governments and armed forces there is not one who is totally innocent. They are all guilty in different ways.
I’m not sure that Hamas wants the border crossings opened. It seems like every time Israel opened a crossing, some idiots on the Gaza side would do something that would result in its closure, like launching rockets, or attacking the crossing with bombs, mortar shells and/or guerrilla units. Not just once, but over and over.
What obligations does Israel have towards the citizens of an autonomous territory that has effectively declared war on Israel? At what point do you hold the citizens of Gaza responsible for the actions of their democratically elected government?
I’m not really touting one side or the other in the current fight, but it should be noted that Israel isn’t the only country bordering Gaza that generally keeps the border closed.
