What is God for?

Great Debates
1

I know this has been done to death,but indulge me.
I guess this is actually directed at you Americans,who still seem to have a high belief ratio,(60% of you still believe in angels…Angels!)
As someone who lives in a country where religion comes somewhere behind ballet in the national consciousness,(and way behind sport/pop music/just about anything thats fun)can anyone get their heads around these points ?
1/As god is backed further and further into a corner,(you know…“allright there was a big bang…but god made that”)where does that leave the all creating,all powerful being?
2/What’s the point of the whole concept of free will/god as supreme judge? why not just make people good…what is it? a game?Whichever way you look at it,it doesn’t seem to make sense.
3/Why is the judean/christian god the right one?..all mankind has some belief system.
4/Why is it divided into so many factions?Isn’t it just an extension of the original tenet…“our club’s better than yours”?
5/If god is the ultimate father,isn’t he guilty of the most hideous child abuse?
6/Oh,right…it’s our fault…if we only lived right and feared him.Well the most terrible abuse has been delivered on the holiest people around…he must really love them.

Hey,I fully support anyones right to religious freedom,but it should be like all private things…kept in the home.
Please feel free to shoot me down in flames,but resist spouting bible text at me.The bible is simply a polemic created to perpetuate the idea.
To paraphrase Montaigne; “Mankind cannot create a single slug,but creates gods by the score”

2

It’s been done to death, but it’s also a staple here.
Good luck getting an answer you like (I don’t think mine would suit you- I don’t have that many religious ideas except that they’re all flaky.)

3

**

You have proof they don’t exist?

**

The more we learn about our surroundings, the closer we feel to God, the more we feel His glory and appreciate His handiwork. After all, when we first saw the beauty of things that were far too deep in the earths crust or ocean to get to before or so far in the heavens as to be impossible to see before now, that’s even more beauty we can attribute to Him.

**

It is not surprising that most of these “belief systems” are all almost identical in terms of the major points?

People, for whatever reason, find comfort in Christ. I think the guy just has better PR folkls than Zoroastria and Kthulu did. But even if you think it’s bunk, you probably appreciate the message and ethics.

Do you know anythign about this message? How much of the Bible have you read? How much have you spoken with believers?

**

I guess you ain’t too familiar with human nature…

**

I don’t feel abused by God. Do you? Why?

**

How come you can claim to know about God and then you misrepresent Him like this? I know that I don’t fear Him.

**

Then why did you start this thread?

Yer pal,
Satan

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I slept with a REPUBLICAN moderator!*

4

Well, I’m in a mood, so I’ll give it a shot. But I think your OP is directed at certain segments of the Christian religion, as it seems a sort of backlash against many of their tenets and practices. But that being said, here I go, point by point.

  1. Contrary to popular belief, God and science are not at odds (we are getting back to that certain segment again). It can actually be a beautiful thing, unravelling the intricacy and complexity of creation and all of it facets. Just because we discover things along the way on how the puzzle was put together does not invalidate the power of God. For many, just the opposite.

  2. If all are good, how would you define good? The existence of both good and evil, both of which come from God, is necessary for free will. We have the choice to do one or the other, to choose our path. Don’t blame God just because it seems that more evil is done than good. Man chooses, God just allows the choice.

  3. Personally, I don’t like combining the two, as I see the Judaic God differing very much from that of the Christian God. I know Christians won’t agree with that, and some Jews may not either. But I digress. Why is He the wrong one? There is no easy answer to that. I trust that God takes this into account somewhere along the line and judges us by our actions and intent, not necessarily because we believed one arguement over the other. But I’m a trusting fellow.

  4. People disagree, it’s their nature. And although I’m not crazy about paraphrasing Christian leaders, I believe it was Polycarp (I may be wrong, but it was one of the early church leaders) “In the essentials unity, in all else, freedom.” And while Christianity is severly factioned (much more than say Judaism or Islam), I think this holds true for all.

  5. You would have to elaborate more on this statement. There are too many ways to interpret this.

  6. Lived right by who’s standards? Abuse happens to many groups, not just the “holiest people around”. And yes, it is people’s faults. They were given the choice, and many times decided to do evil. I don’t like it any more than you, I just lay the blame where it belongs.

As for the private and keeping it at home statement, again directed at those who feel the need to convert others, most times in America it is certain Christian groups.

There is my feelings on it. And hey look, and I did it all without quoting the Bible!

5

Many people need faith to continue. Faith that someone is looking out for them. How far would you have gotten in your life if you knew your parents didn’t love or care for you? The same rationale goes towards God.

Why is Judean/Christian the right one? Well, first split them apart (then put them back together as I’ll mention in a bit). Judaism and Christianity are two seperate beliefs with two seperate Gods. Christians believe in the trinity, Jews don’t. Who’s right? Who knows? Maybe both, maybe neither. But the point is, why do they think they’re right? That’s pretty simple: because if some other religion was right, people would have to admit they were wrong. No one likes doing that.

Now, Christianity grew out of Judaism and, from both sprung Mohammed and his teachings. In that sense, all the Gods of all those religions are alike and it’s really no mystery as to why the religions themselves are so remarkably similar. And it all springs out of common sense ethics and morals to guide you on a better and more rightous path.

You can’t claim (later on) that you don’t trust the Bible and then still use it as an argument against religion. Either you accept that the Bible is correct and those things really happened and then you can argue that God is vindictive, or they never happened and you can’t prove that they did.

While the Old Testement states that the Torah was handed down to Moses through teachings on Mt. Sinai, I don’t believe it. I do believe that the Torah is an excellent tool as to what is right and wrong. Sin and you get floods. Obey me and I will stop time for an entire day so you can defeat those that would try to stop you. Hundreds of examples of good and bad and they all say the same thing “OK, these people were bad. Learn their lessons. If you’re good, you will be saved.”

That’s what God is. It’s a way to save yourself. Maybe not necessarily from Hell, but think of the here and now. God is here to save us from being evil. And that can’t be a bad thing, even if you don’t believe in Him.

I don’t.

6

At no time did I use the bible to support my argument.I’m not stupid.
I’m keeping religion in the home…I’m at home!
I do feel abused by the concept of god,fine if you don’t.it was a hypothetical q anyway.(i.e.if god does exist why does he allow such misery to be brought upon people on this planet who haven’t had the chance to even be made aware he exists?)
Nobody even got close to giving me a point to it all.
I truly believe the world is a miraculous place,but I feel no need to attatch an outdated superstitious narrative to it.

7

Troll.

Yer pal,
Satan

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8

Amen Satan! Never thought I’d say that one!

9

Satan -

Don’t you think you are being a little harsh on this poor guy? I mean, plenty of people before him have come to the SDMB asking the very same question and posing the very same arguments. Perhaps he has not been here long enough to realize that he is being a bit awkward and presumptuous about his understanding and position on this subject.

You are one of the first and funniest posters on the board to jump down the throat of a fundy. Why are you posting as if you’ve the benefit of all the answers to the question this person is asking? I seem to recall that you do a lot of waffling back and forth on the subject on a regular basis… (please don’t ask for a cite! please don’t ask for a cite!..)

I think calling this poster a troll at this stage of the game is a little premature. He may turn out to be one after all, but I suspect that you were in a rare mood when you posted your replies… or perhaps I am now even in a rarer mood (for me) and willing to give people a larger benefit of the doubt than I ordinarily would. :slight_smile:

To answer the OP:

God is many things to many people. Both the theist and the atheist must find his/her own personal reasons for god’s existance/non-existance. After all, as you said, religion and god is a private thing.

If your OP wants to delve into the territory of conduct of large religious organizations, then I think you need to rephrase your OP and address that as a separte issue. (Not that this aspect hasn’t been discussed to death on this board either).

10

Satan speaks for me. (Aaagh…quote that on the Pizza Parlor, and there goes my reputation!!) :smiley:

11

And indeed, we seem to have here that rare beast, the fundamentalist athiest.

I wouldn’t call the OPer a troll for his first post in this thread. It’s been done to death, but maybe he missed the other 40 times it was discussed. But when people make an effort to try to answer Quentin’s questions and his reply is

then yeah, I’d call him a troll too.

To answer the OP:

Same place as always. He lives in the heart of those who loves him, and he’s busy loving those who want him to.

[/quote]

2/What’s the point of the whole concept of free will/god as supreme judge? why not just make people good…what is it? a game?Whichever way you look at it,it doesn’t seem to make sense.
[/quote]

Because existence is lonely and robots aren’t friends. G-d isn’t a judge. The universe is a judge, with or without G-d. G-d is just here, and he wants to have human friends. If you don’t want to be his friend, that’s ok.

I happen to believe that the Judep-Christian concept of god is more truth than fiction. I was raised in it, and it’s more convenient to continue in it than to conform to a new vocabulary and system of classification to describe the same basic phenomona.

It’s because people have quibbled in the past and their descendants haven’t forgiven it. It’s sad but not limited to Christianity or even to religion.

If you’re killed in a freak accident, is your father a murderer?

Oh look, you posed a question, answered it, then attacked your targets for your answer. Well, isn’t that pleasant and rational.

–John

12

You talkin’ to me? Are you talkin’ to ME?!

I thought he loved all his children despite their attitude towards him. It’s just that the ones that really misbehave are going to be punished. Sort of the devine tough love approach.

So god was lonely so he created some toys to amuse and distract him. Makes perfect sense to me. A theory many theist are standing ready to get behind.

Don’t know about everyone else but my father is a very wise, patient and strong man. But not even he could predict a train wreck or a plane crash much less do something to prevent it without prior knowledge. After all, he is only human. On the other hand, god is reputed to be all knowing and all powerful. Surely it’s within his power to prevent an “accident”. Or are we not supposed to question god’s motives? And here I thought we were all friends.

13

**

Exactly, and thank you, John.

I gave the OP the benefit of the doubt. I answered his (or her) questions as best I could. Then someone else came along and answered them even better than I did.

And the second post then clearly showed this posters motivations here.

I repeat: Troll.

Yer pal,
Satan

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14

I prefer: awkward bastard. But very well, have it your way. Like I said, I’m feeling mighty generous today towards his sort. :wink:

Peace.

15

But I’ll say this once and see how ignored I get by his follow up

The Christian God can only act through those who have faith in him and keep the commandments of Christ. These people are also of limited power to prevent all sorts of natural disasters in all places at all times. The macro-laws of physics can be bent but not overturned. Jesus could not have waved his hand and cured everyone everywhere of leprosy for example but only for those who had faith themselves.

Thus, this God isn’t omnipotent in the full sense of the word. He is not the divine weasel.

As far as judgement, this God is merciful as well as just. People have a hang up that perhaps justice is a bad thing. I understand that position to some extent – one being that is both just and merciful seems difficult to comprehend. But I would not want a God that was all of one and none of the other.

But, if you would keep the commandments of Christ, you would discover this is not a superstition. People simply are not willing to do so and thus dismiss the existence of God quite unscientifically. That is unfortunate.

Now, as for all the false Xtians out there, you are right – they largely just pay a superstitious lip service to God and go about their business. There does not seem to be any point to such people and in fact they make real Christians look bad and are often ant-Christian because they don’t think people have to keep Christ’s teachings in order to be saved – thus, anyone who does keep his teachings are somehow misled and are probably, somehow, the anti-Christ. Go figure.

“Things are more the way they are now than they have ever been before” as someone once said.

16

Not particularly. Satan’s sig gives an adequate definition of a fundamentalist religionist. I would amend it to cover all bases:

Asshole + Dogma = Fundy

I don’t believe much in a punishment in the afterlife. Some people do. I can only answer from my position. And of course G-d loves the athiests, but some are offended by Christians saying so. I aim not to offend people who have done me no harm.

Not toys. Friends. I thought I’d overused the word so I didn’t drive it home.

I don’t believe so. What are the ways G-d could save you?
a) Miracle

G-d is theoretically omnipotent but everytime he does something he’s bound by his precedent. And so the laws of this universe are very hard for him to contravene, if it is possible for him to do so.

b) Communication

This might save one person, if they were extremely attuned to the voice of G-d. Maybe. If I had a strange premonition that my train would crash, I’d blow it off.

That’s still not going to stop the crash; many innocent people would still die. And G-d would be very sad about that.

Of course you can question his motives. What’s your question? (BTW, your rejoinder “and here I thought we were all friends” also assumes the answer you expected to your question.)

–John

17

OK. One more time. It’s called evolution people. Please attempt to keep up.

18

Arrrrggghhhh… obviously, much less of that should be bolded.

19

Well I’m not experienced enough in the workings of this board to know for sure,but I gather troll means dumb,uninformed troublemaker?
OK I’ll wear it Satan.Most of the other repliers didn’t feel the urge to resort to name-calling.I’m just a chap who is mightily confused by the huge influence christianity(especially fundimentalist)has on people.OK?
No I haven’t studied the bible (have you studied all the text on Wicca,Budhism,Aboriginal beliefs or Islam? If you haven’t,then…er…troll yourself.
I’m still confused by the manner in which christians are frantically scurrying around trying to fit each new scientific discovery into the narrow hole of their tenet.
I’m still confused about the fact that peeps can’t just have faith in themselves.
I’m really confused by the huge evildoing that religion(not just christs either)has brought upon man(you say it’s mans fault…I say cop-out)
Mr.Satan,I don’t believe in much,but I firmly believe you may have chosen the wrong time to give up smoking (I never smoked meself…for which I heartily thank…no,can’t do it)
“You gotta serve somebody” Bob Dylan.
“Serve yourelf” John Lennon.

20

Ah, but he hasn’t gone around making obnoxious remarks about those groups.

At any rate, no one called you a troll until you ignored everyone’s responses and said

If you want input, then we’re always happy to oblige. But if you want to attack Christian beliefs and ignore people’s rebuttals, then you’re trolling.

–John