What is hate speech?

[jimbuff314]

In this thread, charmingly titled by the OP “Can Oklahoma do anything right?” (nothing inflammatory in that title), after I make clear that I’m a member of an American Indian tribe living (still!) in Oklahoma, poster Zebra makes the following statement :

You still live in Oklahoma? You know we allow you folk to move about the country now. I suggest you do. Oklahoma is a wonderful place to be from. Far from.

I took issue with the “we allow you folk to move about the country now” part of it, reported it and Zebra was mod-noted for it.

Well and good. I continue posting here and there in the thread, considering the matter over with.

Four days later Zebra posted this in response to my reaction :

Ummmm That was a joke. Sorry you didn’t take it as one.

Well, I got angry that he attempted to excuse what he had said and implied that I was thin-skinned as well as stupid and I gave him the typographical “finger”. I was rightly mod-noted for this. I apologize if anyone was offended by my crass, juvenile display.

The following morning, (this AM) the OP posted to say that while he didn’t agree with putting the joke the way Zebra did, he didn’t feel it rose to the level of a reportable infraction.
I gave a brief synopsis of the Cherokee’s forcible removal from Georgia, the tragedy and horror they endured and stated the following :

If you were and had [an American Indian, whose people had been subjected to…, etc.], perhaps you would be a little more reticent with your opinions about jokes like “we allow you folk to move around the country now.”

Then I did a slight bit of junior-modding and was rightly called out by the OP and mod-noted as well for that (Dammit, what does it take for me to learn something?).

So, finally, to my question. (I’m sure the only people still with me by now are a mod or two) What constitutes hate speech? And perhaps as important, who determines it? Wikipedia sez :

Hate speech is, outside the law, speech that attacks a person or group on the basis of e.g. race, religion, gender, disability, or sexual orientation

Well, I certainly felt attacked on the basis of my race by Zebra’s … joke.
I also felt attacked four days later when he came back and told me that it was just a joke and that I, as an American Indian should be able to take jokes about being allowed to move freely about the country nowadays.
I guess the basis of that being a joke is the fact that we weren’t always allowed to move freely about the country for a good part of the past 3-400 years. Just thinking about that being the basis for a joke upsets me in several different ways.

So, mods, anyone who’s still following this, how about it? Hate speech or no? Who decides and what is that decision-making based on?

[Munch]

At first glance, I’d say you overreacted. Someone could make the same comment about New Jersey to anyone of indeterminate race/ethnicity, and it’d be the same joke. But the discussion between the two of you was already heated (you fired off a pretty heavy “so back the fuck off” earlier), and Zebra’s comment was a little close to home with the “you folk”, and you had just made a comment about your people being forcibly moved to Oklahoma.

In my humble opinion, you could have diffused the situation by just stating you found it a bit off-color in the thread, and wait for Zebra to apologize. You’re certainly within your rights to get a mod involved, though.

[VinylTurnip]

His joke, while arguably less than sensitive, came through the door you opened with your comment that you live in Oklahoma now because your ancestors were moved there 180 years ago. He was emphasizing how much he thinks Oklahoma sucks, not disparaging your tribe. “You folk” was likely an unsuccessful effort to avoid the treacherous “you people” trap when addressing a member of a minority group.

You’re within your rights to be upset by it. Applying the know-it-when-I-see-it test, though, it doesn’t qualify as hate speech. Not even close.

[Marley23]

I think that’s a reasonable way of looking at it. (Who are you and what have you done with Vinyl Turnip?) Zebra’s “Ummmm That was a joke” post didn’t help matters either. The first post was inappropriate and the wording was dumb, but I wouldn’t call it hateful.

[jimbuff314]

I welcome and appreciate your opinion Munch, but “wait for Zebra to apologize”? That’s rich.

[Colibri]

@jimbuff314

So, mods, anyone who’s still following this, how about it? Hate speech or no?

In my opinion as a moderator, the remark doesn’t come within a light-year of hate speech. It was an insensitively phrased joke, to which you greatly overreacted. The joke, in fact, was directed against Oklahoma, not Native Americans. He didn’t say anything negative about Native Americans.

[Loach]

@Marley23

(Who are you and what have you done with Vinyl Turnip?)

That is extremely troubling. Search parties will be sent out immediately.

[jimbuff314]

Okay. I guess it is a positive thing that we folk are free to move about the country now. I asked for your opinion, Colibri and I got it. Thank you for that.

Thank you also for making the line so bright for me (Bright-line rule). I suppose jokes involving Native Americans’ freedom will always be a touchy subject to me. However, I will do my best in the future to toe that line.

[Leo_Bloom]

Do you think he was expressing hate to you for being a Native American or hate of Native Americans in general for whatever?

No hate, no hate speech. Stupid that ever got codified as legally meaningful words.

[jimbuff314]

I was going off how what he said made me feel. As everyone points out, however, that is my problem and no one else’s. I’ll either get over it or get lost.

Wikipedia sez :

Critics have argued that the term “hate speech” is a contemporary example of Newspeak, used to silence critics of social policies that have been poorly implemented in a rush to appear politically correct.

So, I guess George Orwell is not on my side either.

You may think hate speech as a legal principle is stupid. It is literally punishable by imprisonment in Germany, France and elsewhere. Those countries (and their legal systems) don’t seem to have ground to a halt as a result, however.

Of course, to be as honest as I can (right now), there is another thing that is probably factoring into my massive overreaction. That is the vilification of Oklahoma here on this message board. It really bugs me. As I pointed out in the IMHO thread, we were here quite a bit of time before Oklahoma was. To answer Zebra’s (implied) question, our family’s land allotment is here. We raise cattle and crops on it. We hunt and fish on it. It is our home turf. For him to ask why I don’t just move on … well, not to open that can of worms again.

I’ve more than answered your question. Sorry for rambling on.

[Colibri]

We haven’t provided a formal definition of hate speech in the Board rules. However, in general it might be invoked for extremely derogatory ethnic insults, advocating genocide or violence against a group, and similar offenses. In practice, it’s something rarely seen on the Boards except from drive-by trolls who are usually immediately banned.

From Wikipedia:

Hate speech is, outside the law, speech that attacks a person or group on the basis of e.g. race, religion, gender, disability, or sexual orientation.[1][2]

In law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group.

In the present case I see no attack or incitement to violence, so the post doesn’t fit either the general or legal definition of hate speech.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Colibri

We haven’t provided a formal definition of hate speech in the Board rules. However, in general it might be invoked for extremely derogatory ethnic insults, advocating genocide or violence against a group, and similar offenses. In practice, it’s something rarely seen on the Boards except from drive-by trolls who are usually immediately banned.

From Wikipedia:

In the present case I see no attack or incitement to violence, so the post doesn’t fit either the general or legal definition of hate speech.

If a poster mentioned he was a Jew living in Germany and another poster said to him

“You still live there? You know we let you people leave? I suggest you do? Germany’s a great place to be from. Far from” would you feel it would be ridiculous to consider that an anti-Semitic statement or hate speech?

To me it would be pretty clearly hate speech and aid report it.

Would people feel I was wrong and reporting something that was no where near hate speech?

[raventhief]

@Ibn_Warraq

If a poster mentioned he was a Jew living in Germany and another poster said to him

“You still live there? You know we let you people leave? I suggest you do? Germany’s a great place to be from. Far from” would you feel it would be ridiculous to consider that an anti-Semitic statement or hate speech?

To me it would be pretty clearly hate speech and aid report it.

Would people feel I was wrong and reporting something that was no where near hate speech?

I personally wouldn’t see that as hate speech. =I don’t even think that would strike me as particularly anti-Semitic, but I may be in the minority there. Just a clumsy/insensitive attempt at a joke - I don’t see any “hate” there.

[jimbuff314]

@Colibri

[…]
In the present case I see no attack or incitement to violence, so the post doesn’t fit either the general or legal definition of hate speech.

Yeah, I didn’t quote the “in law” part of the definition from Wikipedia in this OP because it seemed clear to me that it was referring to those countries in which laws against hate speech have been enacted. Of course, in European countries, as Ibn Warraq points to, there was an attempted genocide of an entire population of people that came far, far too close to being successful. Nothing like that has taken place in the Americas.

Not anytime nearly as recently, anyway.

[Labrador_Deceiver]

I lean more toward the OP’s line of thinking. I wouldn’t call it hate speech, but it was an incredibly shitty thing to say. Totally uncalled for.

He wasn’t even decent enough to apologize afterward.

[Exapno_Mapcase]

@raventhief

I personally wouldn’t see that as hate speech. =I don’t even think that would strike me as particularly anti-Semitic, but I may be in the minority there. Just a clumsy/insensitive attempt at a joke - I don’t see any “hate” there.

I agree. The target of the joke there is clearly the Nazis, not the Jews. It’s twisting the meaning beyond sense to consider it anti-Semitic.

You could even argue that today’s Germans, who are after all 69 years removed from the Nazis, are the ones being hated, since that quote treats them all as a past stereotype.

The target in Zebra’s post is equally clearly whatever stereotypical bad/dumb/bigoted/foolish behavior that the media report about Oklahomans and not in any way about the Native Americans who live there. Or about any real life ordinary Oklahomans who live there. People make similar jokes about every state, and Florida, Texas, New Jersey, California, Mississippi, and New York get the brunt of those far more often than Oklahoma does.

That doesn’t make the jokes any less stupid. Still, it’s hard to believe that the joke was directed at the OP’s personal history or really that any thought at all was given to it beyond place of residence. Racism and bigotry are often independent of intent; whether hate speech can be is an issue worth 500 posts in GD. There are times I wish we treated Dumbth as seriously as it should be, but the world doesn’t work that way.

[Colibri]

@Ibn_Warraq

If a poster mentioned he was a Jew living in Germany and another poster said to him

“You still live there? You know we let you people leave? I suggest you do? Germany’s a great place to be from. Far from” would you feel it would be ridiculous to consider that an anti-Semitic statement or hate speech?

To me it would be pretty clearly hate speech and aid report it.

Would people feel I was wrong and reporting something that was no where near hate speech?

I think it’s nowhere near hate speech. As others have said, the target of the remark is Germans, not Jews. While somewhat derogatory against Germans, implying that they are all anti-Semitic, I wouldn’t regard it as being hate speech against them either. (I’m partly of German ancestry, for what it’s worth.)

As I mentioned above, on the Board and also in the general and legal definitions of hate speech, it refers to far more extreme expressions of bigotry. We rarely invoke it specifically on the board, because it generally constitutes trolling as well.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Labrador_Deceiver

I lean more toward the OP’s line of thinking. I wouldn’t call it hate speech, but it was an incredibly shitty thing to say. Totally uncalled for.

He wasn’t even decent enough to apologize afterward.

I’d agree and FWIW, clearly the mod, Idle Thoughts agreed.

He/She mod noted Zebra and acknowledged that Zebra at least seemed to be making a comment that seemed to be at the very least bordering on racism.

In post # 45.

I don’t know if you are really saying or meaning what you appear to be saying, but it’s jerkish nonetheless, so knock off posting these types of comments.

FWIW, I think Idle Thoughts made the right call in mod noting it but choosing to give Zebra the benefit of the doubt and not give Zebra a warning even though Zebra “seemed” to be making a racist comment.

The way Zebra used the word “we” and “you folk” made it pretty clear to me that this was a racial comment and not all that different from Helen Thomas suggestion that Israeli Jews “go home” to “Poland or Germany or the US or wherever”.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Colibri

I think it’s nowhere near hate speech. As others have said, the target of the remark is Germans, not Jews. While somewhat derogatory against Germans, implying that they are all anti-Semitic, I wouldn’t regard it as being hate speech against them either. (I’m partly of German ancestry, for what it’s worth.)

As I mentioned above, on the Board and also in the general and legal definitions of hate speech, it refers to far more extreme expressions of bigotry. We rarely invoke it specifically on the board, because it generally constitutes trolling as well.

Fair enough. I disagree but YMMV.

[Measure_for_Measure]

If Zebra is familiar with the Trail of Tears, methinks he owes an apology. If he is not, he has much in common with much of America.