What is identity?

Identity, there are two aspects to it: what I know myself to be me, and what others know me to be me.

What others know me to be me consists in what they have in their memory of me: name, address, family relations, work circumstances, social background, schooling, experiences of me, encounters with me, events with me: in brief any data whatever that can link me to me for them.

The key word and idea here is memory. If people don’t have any memory of me, they can’t identify me. The memory we are talking about here is the memory in their minds, insofar as they are the people who do know me and my identity.

For people who don’t have the memory of my identity, and they never had any memory of my identity, for they never knew me, in order to know my identity, they look up records of all kinds of me, about me, and on me; then they can identity me to be me, in accordance with the records they have looked up with regard to me.

Now we come to my knowing myself to be me, my identity. Suppose I don’t have in my memory all the data that others have of me that make up my identity to them. In effect I don’t know who I am, I don’t have my identity in my mind, specifically, in my memory. A man without an identity to himself, that’s what I have become.

Can I lose the memory of myself, all the data of myself enabling me to know who I am? What about amnesia, the complete kind, where you don’t even know your name. Without a name how can I even so much as search records of whom the name belongs to?

Without the memory of so much as my name and everything else that can be used to start my own search for my identity in written records to which I could have recourse, how then can I get back my identity? If I am lucky, people who can identify me will have to fill me up on my identity; then I will become myself again.

But if I find myself among people who see in me a complete stranger, people who don’t even know from where I originate, or from what people I used to live among, how am I going to ever find my identity? Maybe by going all over the earth, asking everyone to look at me and tell me whether they might know me. Or have my picture flashed in every television screen or computer monitor the whole earth over?

My conclusion is that identity consists in memory in my mind and/or in the minds of other people who know my identity, or in preserved records in all media of storage which people can be interested in looking up to restore in my and in their memory my identity.

If you want to lose your identity and that for good, then have your memory data of your identity erased in your mind, in other people’s minds who know you, and in all kinds of data storages of your identity items. Then you will no longer exist as yourself to yourself and to others and to the whole world.

But the self as a subject, let’s say of a sentence, and in actual life as the agent of being and acting, is still there. And you are still an entity specific to yourself, though without an identity. But that kind of a being an entity, with a continuity of consciousness of being the numerically identical entity, that also is an identity; but of no worth and utility except that of being a numerical identity, as in #1 or #574 are not any other numerical entities but those and only exclusively those two: #1 and #574.

Here is the practical application of my mini-dissertation on identity: It can be a bridge to continuity of the self for some kind of prolonged existence or indefinite continuation of life. Here’s how: get someone to lose all his memory of himself, and fill him with all the memory of your identity, then you both live as one in two bodies, with your identity, namely, all the memory of yourself, the original one.

When you die, the other one of the combined you will take over, and start the serial existence with the next loop. But where to get someone for this purpose? What about cloning? just get yourself clowned early in life as soon as cloning for man is possible.

Susma Rio Sep

The identity you talk of taking away is not identity at all. With all records erased in your mind and the minds of others as to who you think you are, you will still know that you are you. Labels are not who you are. You are not your name, occupation, achievements, or any of these, because if we took them away you would still be you. Who are you? Something greater than all these labels! This is the reason for physical life, to answer this question.

Love
Leroy

There is more than one kind of identity.
Personal identity amounts to memory.
Social identity amounts to society’s memory of you.

What’s “you” can only be recognized in contrast to what is “not-you.” W/o “not-you” all there is is “you.” If all there is is “you” then there is no differentiation. Can’t have up w/o a down.
So identity has to do with contrasts and enviroment.

We see ourselves in contrast to the rest of the universe and in contrast to the rest of humanity. We know where we are only in relation to our surrounding space. We know who we are only in relation to that/those around us.

I don’t see memories and records as identity so much as they’re definitions/limits/boundaries of identity. Records/memories serve to distinguish each of us in various way from various things. I’m the one who was here typing this opposed to the one who has only read this. My memory of typing this serves to delineate this distinction.

If all records/memories of me and my actions were destroyed many of the limits of my identity would be erased, but not all of them.

I’m not convinced as to the tabula rasa assumption you seem to be making. I don’t believe that we are interchangeable sans memories etc. Clones would be the closest we could come to it, though.

** Who are you? Something greater than all these labels! This is the reason for physical life, to answer this question. - Love, Leroy

We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make our world. - The Buddha **

Why Leroy! You impress me. Not what you and The Buddha said, but everything that you said when you said… “Love, Leroy.”

Look here, you can’t clone yourself and put your memories into the clone; how old will the clone be when you do this to them?at?
twenty?
ten?
two? six months?

in the womb?

If you do any of these things you are effectively wiping out the memories of your own identical twin.
Clones are nothing but your own twin born at a later date- they are emphatically not tabula rasa, but fully developed human beings in their own right.


SF worldbuilding at
http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html

We had an interesting chat about this some time ago (curiously initiated by a crappy Schwarzenegger film), exploring the philosophical consequences of “mind-cloning” with regards to memory and identity. The general conclusion was that “you” die when you go to sleep and someone else with your memories wakes up.

You are correct, Susma in postulating memory to be almost synonymous with identity. All we need be, in order to explain every aspect of our experience (including consciousness itself if Susan Greenfield is to be believed), is a sensor connected to a memory (or several sensors connected to different “term” memories, if you prefer).

However, it is not strictly the sole arbiter: Our behaviour - how we react to a given stimuli - is hardwired into our brains from our upbringing: The man suffering complete amnesia still talks the same language with the same accent, rides a bicycle and displays the same “temper” in a confrontation. This is what I see when I first meet you, and it identifies you as easily as your memories.

As for cloning, as others have pointed out, a physical identical twin is not even half of the story. Even if we were somehow able to replicate every single neural connection, we do not know what inputs caused those connections originally. We would be trying to decrypt a signal without knowing the original private key, or observing the switches in a microchip and trying to guess what computer game was running.

So, ultimately: yes, identity is just memory mixed with some hard-wired stimulus response mechanisms from childhood. But will anyone ever be truly “mind-cloned”? I think not.

Identity is in the eye of the identifier.

This thread has been one of my favorite discussions on identity.

A slight adjustment to erl’s link And presto, it works!:wink:

Hmm… it works for me either way.

Sorry. Must be my browser, because still when I click on yours (I had to remove the " " around the url to get it to work), all that happens is an blank window pops up and remains blank.

Of course, I find this blankness quite hilarious considering the context; even found myself wondering if you’d done it on purpose.

There are quotation marks around the URL? Not here.

I gotta say, that would be quite a pointed link, though! :smiley: