Uh huh. And it happens every single goddamned thread that someone happens to ask about something that’s related to being overweight. The only things I found potentially offensive (ahem) are, “two-ton tillie”, “refrigerator that is being covered by a quilted blanket on moving day”, and stopping at McDonalds.
But, in the context of what he’s explaining, I found them more attempts at comedy than anything hurtful. He apparently DOES have a chip on his shoulder, but I know other fat people who might use those same turns of phrase in an OP.
A lot of those thin stars you mentioned are from earlier generations, or taken in their prime. Lanzo got fat; caruso wasnt thin.
My guess is vocal training requires lung capacity but not much cardio–and a girl that can meet the difficult vocal standards for le grand op-er-a can plump up and there is no way to replace her voice, because of course each voice human is distinct
So they cant replace the ‘fat lady’ with a younger, thinner, bimbo, like in most jobs – there is no replacing the distinctive voice
Also my guess is learning all of the lines and cues for an opera is something that experienced singers have an advantage in.
Yeah and domingo def. has a ‘healthy’ body and isn’t thin. Carrerras is thin though.
So basically opera gives vocal talent more importance than looks. The opposite would be a place like a local news channel picking a new anchor, where it is all looks (and talent is negligible)
Also the acting in opera is really a ‘secondary objective’ and bad actors are legendary – i forget who but there was on of the famous singers in the ,et during the 50-60’s golden era that was reputed for having no acting ability
I bet if we had an opera tryout here, whichever one of us could nail a perfect ‘high c’ would get the lead role, no matter what age or weight!
(yeah the irony is that those ‘fat ladies’ have MASSIVE lung capacity, built up as like a long distance runner. The fat hides the immense strength of their diaphram & lungs)
Well, I was a lot less bothered by the OP than with post #4, which was nothing but inflammatory.
Try this: Music has traditionally focused more on the music than the appearance of the musician. That’s less true in the age of MTV (You know, back when they still had more videos than reality shows), but opera is a musical niche where fat people can still be superstars.
Really–you could have simply said “Why are opera singers predominantly overweight?” Or even use the word “fat.” I’m fat and I don’t find the word or the aforementioned question offensive. But the term “fat-asses” is not only crude, it’s a deliberately offensive term, and used so that anyone who objects gets the “why is it so bad to say anything at all about being fat?” whine.
Being fat is not a good thing–I think most people can agree on that. But just say “fat” and leave off the pejorative tone. It’s the same difference as saying a woman is “old” and calling her an “old hag.” One is a truthful statement, the other is a purposeful insult.
I wouldn’t argue, except that it seems like opera has a higher rate of obesity than the general public. If the reason was “nobody cares what opera stars look like” then you would expect obesity rates in opera about the same as among normal people, right?
i also remember seeing ‘student prince’ where the ‘beautiful’ girl was acted by a short, plump older lady, and the ‘ugly’ one was a young, thin one. Doesnt matter – the plump girl had the voice, so she got the part.
Saw ‘Carmen’ and the male tenor lead was russian and could not pronounce french worth a damn – he was short and fat too. But he got the role since he had the voice, in fact the company paid for him to travel from russia just for the role (i think to replace their regular tenor who was out due to vocal problems)
“Taken in their prime” … yeah, that’s the point, isn’t it? They were at their peak of popularity and fame and yet the OP thinks most famous opera singers are morbidly obese. Lots of people get heavier as they get older; you can say the same about many actors and dancers too. I admit my knowledge of famous opera singers is a little out of date, as I’ve left the business and lost touch with keeping up with the newer folks myself, but the above are still among the most famous singers ever – then and now.
That said, I’d be willing to wager that the new line of most popular opera stars are thinner than their older counterparts – Denyce Graves, Catharine Maltifano, and Renee Fleming are in this group. Look at what happened to Deborah Voigt; she was dumped from a role due to her weight – despite having a phenomenal voice – something that would almost never have happened in past generations. Opera’s much more “let’s hire pretty people” than it used to be. Kind of a shame, but shallow is part of show biz in general; it was inevitable opera would catch up with the rest of its theatrical counterparts.
Insecurity. Opera is a profession where everything depends on the voice. You can have a long successful career in popular music if you have an ordinary voice like Madonna or Springsteen or even a lousy one like Dylan or James Brown if you have other goods. But the human voice is delicate to signing at such a rang problems can easily happen. One cracked note and catcalls ensue. To comfort themselves, singers turn to the easiest comfort thing there is:food.
Since I doubt your thread title was meant for little else than to get a reaction out of people, Valteron, here’s mine: this is a formal warning for you to stop acting like a jerk.
I’ve edited your thread title to something less inflammatory, but I’m leaving the thread open because it’s possible to salvage a discussion out of it. But keep in mind that this isn’t the Pit, and it does you no favors to pretend that it is; there’s a very thin line between provocative thread titles and jerkish ones, so my suggestion is that you don’t even try to run up against it.
And just to cut short a hijack about this ruling, any comments you may have about it can be made in the Pit or ATMB.
Except that there does not seem to be any evidence that being fat makes you sing well. Please see the article refered to in post no. 5 which is hotlinked here .
Also, I once again offer as evidence Simon Keenlyside. Take a look at him playing Billy Budd in the opera of the same name. Look at the pics of Simon at this site Whotta Hunk!
And if you think taking care of your body keeps a singer from having a good voice, listen to Simon singing here.
The argument that being fat makes you sing well is the direct equivalent of alcoholics like WC Fields or journalists or writers like Hemmingway claiming they need their booze to be funny, or creative or whatever. It is the typical rationalization of the addict.
The fact is that obesity is caused by a voluntary daily ingestion of several thousand more calories than your body needs to function. In this sense, obesity is the end result of, and the symptom of, an overeating addiction as surely as drunkeness and illness are end results of alcohol addiction.
By the way, I know what I am talking about since I am an alcoholic (who has not touched a drop in 16 years) AND a chronic overeater. I go to Overeaters Anonymous and although I obviously cannot go 100% without food, I HAVE managed to get my chronic overeating under control and lose 20 pounds. I am now 5’9" and 175 lbs. Still overweight but better than I used to be.
But my OP was not directed against all overweight and obese persons. I was talking about opeera singers.
If I had posted something criticizing Michael Jackson’s cosmetic surgery obsession, would I get the same outrage from everyone who has had cosmetic surgery, I wonder?
Although I’m old and fat, I fully understand the mechanics behind a valid syllogism. I was more reacting to how your perfectly reasonable question all of a sudden became how horrible fat people are in general. You brought up your brother in law. Since I don’t know him, I surely didn’t.
why…
all tap dancers are black - natural rhythm
all actors are gay - natural DRAMA!
all baseball players take steroids - umm…trainer said it was “vitamins”
Valteron, I don’t care for opera myself, but am prone to observation. Seeing that Sill’s quote lead me to believe there was some basis to it.
Of course there are exceptions; Sills herself and her duet with Ann Margaret (on YouTube now) give the lie to it, as does Maria Callas. They do not meet my criteria for being fat.
IMO, it’s the lungs that make the singer, with attendent training and practice. Women tend to have large busts ala Minnie Ripperton, a very high flying bird. Perhaps that is what Sill’s meant by “horse” as opposed to “fat”.
Keeping your voice in peak performance takes hours of practice every day, and the business of opera is as cutthroat as they come. Keeping yourself in good physical condition takes at least an hour every day, and you’re better off putting in two or more hours of exercise.
The vocal training opera singers go through is certainly good for the health. Singing lowers blood pressure. The breath control necessary increases lung capacity, and I would not be surprised to hear that the heart benefits from it. Obese opera singers are probably one of the few examples of those who really can be fit and fat.
So, in the life of an opera singer, with day long rehearsals, constant competition, and practice, practice, practice, it would be very difficult to also keep up a regular regiment of exercise. Instead, they tend to relax with good food and lots of it, because the socializing over meals serves to help their career. Most of them stay healthy into their sixties and seventies, so there’s no scary crisis to force them to reconsider their lifestyles. On top of that, they are respected and loved for their voice talents, and there’s a great deal of tolerance for their obesity, because it has little to no effect on their talent.
Is it possible to be a high ranked opera singer and have a healthy weight? Certainly. Valteron’s cite is evidence enough of that. However, it’s swimming against the current both within the culture of opera and in the context of the demands of the trade. It would take an enormous commitment to keep both your voice and your body in good condition, and if you had to give up one, which would it be? For a successful opera singer, it would be the body.