What is it that makes American cops invincible?

Great Debates
21

The answer to the qeustion it seems is in the first sentence of the thread:

As far as I know there is not a significant proportion of the American population attempting to overthrow the government - i.e. there have been no revolutions in the past 20 years and no serious revolutions in the past 200 or so.

Maybe now that you’ve all discovered how f*d up your electoral system is you will want to start a revolution, but I suspect that the level of comfort is high enough that apathy will reign supreme as always.

22

Naw…

I was goingo to say “fat,” too, but then I’m skinny, lazy, and possibly stupid.

Love,
Another Frustrated Marxist Drunk

23

We don’t need to revolt to change our electoral system. All we have to do is amend the constitution.

Corruption on that level and for that long a period of time is unique to L.A. Other cities have had their problems, but not to the extent L.A. has.

For example, I know all the local cops (all 3 of them) and a number of State Troopers from the nearest barracks and I can tell you they’re all stand up guys doing a thankless, dangerous job.

24

A sitrep from The Movement?

25

The cops will generally win for the same reason that the old Mafia used to always win: because they will throw as much force and resources at an opponent as necessary to maintain their superiority. I could go out and kill a dozen people and not get the attention and pursuit that I would get for WOUNDING one cop. They protect their own and do it ruthlessly.

26

Why do police win?

A picture is worth a thousand words; here’s 5000 from Seattle November 30th (2000) WTO protest (140-150 non-violent protesters arrested):

http://seattle.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=1779

I think moving to a GD thread would be great, because I would love to post how fundamentally undemocratic this is and just what it feels like to be tear gassed. But I won’t.

27

It looks like the police are just standing there, taking in the night air, and making sure that no one gets hurt. Why did the democratic protesters feel the need to attack them and embarass Seattle in the international media. Poor guys. They really should have a curfew on those silly college kids and hippies before they start an international incident.

28

Short

Well, I found that picture(s) interesting. Whining (the photographer) about not being able to read the names of cops shooting people with rubber bullets?

In the ‘old’ days, the photographer would have been concerned about less well trained and equipped officers just going in with riot clubs, fire hoses, cattle prods and backed up by gun carrying officers, and just cleaning house.

In general, with few exceptions, the American cops are becoming a fine tuned, well trained, comprehensive force designed to handle nonmilitary situations. The spread of internal corruption has begun to be weeded out thanks to the general outrage of the public and the media and fellow officers realizing that the days of the ‘blue line’ are about as dead as the old ‘firehouse gangs’.

Today’s officers get better training, better weapons, better legal protection and defense, and are screened psychologically in most cases. They are faced with the understanding that there are thousands of lawyers out there who want to ‘get’ them on any possibly illegality or improper act possible. Most officers have the opportunity to take advanced college police related courses at State expense. Most officers know that the old days of corruption within many forces or abuse have been brought to the public view and that there are geeky, young guys out there with beards, video cameras, a rudimentary understanding to the law and a huge desire to join any cause salivating to catch a cop farting wrong.

Plus, lawsuits have forced police to cover their butts by installing audio and video technology to record their actions.

In any job of authority, there will inevitably be those who are power hungry or corruptible (look at congress), but the police make an effort to ‘police’ themselves.

Here in America, we have it pretty good. An officer gets respect. The majority of the people depend on and support him/her knowing well the anarchy lurking in the ghettoes, slums, executive offices and mega businesses that are kept at bay by these people. Aside from nations like Canada, United Kingdom, Sweden, Norway, Australia and Japan, most other police forces are not as well trained, screened or in as stable a political climate.

In Mexico, because of the general corruption, most of the cops are there for fleecing tourists and fellow Mexicans out of money or on the drug lords payrolls. The same conditions happen in South America, where most of the police are actually hired thugs, under local political control.

In many nations, the police are not as well trained, are hired through a network of ‘who knows who’ rather than qualifications, are drastically under paid, under equipped and work within a system that uses them like a military force. In Russia, not only are the ‘rights’ of the public questionable, but many resent and outright defy the police who work long hours under dangerous conditions for little pay because unemployment is so terribly high.

Civil rights, technology, screening, built in ‘restrictions and controls’, public awareness, education and wide media coverage goes into making the American cops a force to be reckoned with. There have been tapes shown on TV where cops have gotten out of hand and deliberately beat the crap out of a suspect or even shot him unnecessarily and those officers have been fired and/or imprisoned.

With officers frequently coming across millions in drug money and drugs, it takes a heck of a person, with a mortgage, with bills, with a family, with car and insurance payments, with desires of better things to not skim some for themselves. (Personally, if a cop rousts a dealer and finds $2000 in folded $20 in his pockets along with crack and only $1500 gets into evidence, then more power to him. I consider that as an ‘enticement’ for the police to get the scum off of the streets.)

Public pressure has forced the cops to improve. The days of taking bribes, accepting ‘gifts’, doing ‘favors’ or hiring big, beefy ‘enforcers’ are almost over with. Cops here take pride in getting the job done. Plus, the whole law enforcement network from the FBI, ATF, State, County and City sectors never drop a case until it is solved. We even have special detectives going through cold cases 20 years old trying to solve them and having some good measure of success with the new technologies.

I would rather face a current American Cop than one in France, Pakistan, Mexico, India, China, anywhere in Africa, or any Middle Eastern nation. I stand a better chance of survival, clearing myself of charges if mistakenly arrested, getting to the station intact, and getting medical help if needed plus being treated according to my civil rights.

29

As this seems to be a GD or IMHO anyway
(i) no one (to my knowledge) is claiming any violence towards the police. Those arrested were charged with pedestrian interference, aggressive begging, and failure to disperse (according to the independent media center).

In fact, my experience is anti-globalization protestors go out of their way to PROTECT police. In the numerous protests I have been a witness to, no one has ever acted violently towards the police.

(ii) About this time last year, we did have a curfew. Enforced with riot battons, tear gas, pepper spray, explosives and the national gaurd. If you are interested in the happenings around the Seattle WTO last year, a good perspective is
ACLU’s report:
http://www.aclu-wa.org/ISSUES/police/WTO-Report.html

The photographer’s comment about the names I think refers to the recently passed city ord. requiring officers to display their names. Prior to the ord. many police covered up their names and badges, and refused to give any identifing info when asked.

During WTO week (Nov 30 to Dec 3, 1999) Seattle Fire refused the Seattle Police request to use hoses. The munitions used are listed at http://www.cityofseattle.net/spd/SPDMainsite/wto/appendix_e.htm . Wooden battons were also used. Police of course carried sidearms, and in some cases, larger conventional guns.

Am I glad the police don’t kill people very often (they use “less letal” tactics today)? Sure. Is this all we can expect of the state: not to kill very many of us? I think we can do better.

The fact of the matter is (to return to the original post), police win because they will beat down butterflies with baseball bats. Never trust a para-military force to keep the peace.

My apologies to the Mods. This is clearly going in the direction of GD or IMHO.

30

140-150 non-violent protesters who got arrested for failing to disperse when told to. Oh, I’ve hear the people saying ‘we didn’t have anywhere to disperse to - the cops boxed us in’. Sure, they boxed you in… after you failed to disperse for $% MINUTES after the initial order was given. Also, 2/3 of the original crowd found places to disperse to. Hell, you can empty a stadium full of 30,000 people in forty-five minutes - 300 people can’t break up a crowd in that amount of time? And ‘dispersing’ DOESN’T mean move down 1/2 block, and regroup. it means LEAVE THE AREA. If you regroup down the street then YOU HAVEN’T DISPERSED!!!

31

Two words: Bull Connor.
If that doesn’t ring a specific bell for you, put it into your search engine along with “Alabama” and “Martin Luther King”.

32

I no longer see how this thread can live in GQ. Everyone, welcome it to its new home, Great Debates.

33

America invincible? The thought sends a shiver down my spine. i think it was Adolf Hitler who wisely answered the question on why does good always win when he noted that whoever wins the wars writes the history books. American cops are far from invincible. Especially when you monitor who you ask.

Ask new york citizens who are forced to treat mugging and other violent robberies normal everyday happenings. These crimes are just not solved by your super cops.

Ask the families of cops who have been killed as drugs and poverty infect the arrogant ideal of perfection. i have to agree that this ideal is made possible by ignorance on behalf of the american public. (not that it is their fault as who dosn’t get brainwashed)

resources aside, america should wake up to itself as like all great empires it is real problems which will eventually decay the illusion of a perfect righteous socety.

-love and other dark pastimes,
judas

34

You know, most people who gripe about the American cops usually have something to hide or are planning on doing something moderately illegal, in my experience. Most people scream and yell about there not being enough police around when they’re being mugged, shot, beaten up and terrorized but complain bitterly about police attitude when they get hauled in after two beers, getting caught with a joint or doing a little light hearted vandalism.

Since the LAPD got caught with outrageous corruption and the NYPD has been fighting a history of it since nearly the first cops were hired there, police departments have been changing. Most cops today are goal oriented, not just taking the job to shove folks around, make a fortune in payoffs or to steal what they can steal and the Blue Wall is crumbling.

American cops do not give up. That is why they always win. Most officers hired in major police forces have college training and due to the willingness of every person on the street to want to sue them, they have a much better grasp of the laws, plus now follow standardized procedure.

You cannot expect a NYPD officer to act as nicely as a Small Town America cop who’s biggest night is arresting good ol’ boys for whupping up on each other in a parking lot or fishing 16 year old Mary Sue out of that 27 year old guys car, again. Cops reflect their environment. A New Jersey cop because of the violence in his community is much more likely to be abrupt and react forcefully while a Hollywood cop is more likely to be polite and cautious because of all of the money walking around like regular folks – followed by scores of lawyers.

You will get bad cops no matter what you do. Cops who hold grudges, cops who use too much force, cops who take bribes and cops who are on the payroll of organized crime. Then again, as I stated before, so are many of our political leaders. The number, however, is being slowly weeded out. A major problem is that the main leadership of many police forces is basically political and not only do they have to play politics to keep little things like budgets going, but usually have to grant ‘favors’, like not locking up the mayors kid who was caught screwing that 14 year old girl, or getting rid of the records of the City Administrator’s getting caught sloshed behind the wheel in order to have him approve the budget for the new radio system.

Still, American cops win because the majority of the general public supports them, especially now with car jackings, gangs, drug wars, home invasion, and robbers killing clerks for $20 in the cash register. America’s Most Wanted has proven that people want to get involved and video’s of citizens trying to help the cops stop a car thief, or jumping in to help an officer who is down shows that.

You get ticked off when a cop catches you doing 90 in a 40 mph zone and gives you a whopping ticket, but you just had to buy the darn car that hits light speed and it was your foot on the gas pedal. It is you, the buyer, who wants the car industry to turn out race cars, then you equip them with low profile, road hugging tires, replace the standard fuel computer chip with a high performance one and floor it every chance you get. Then you howl at the police to do something about it when sitting at home and cars blast down your street at 110 mph.

It is you who stands on your civil rights and demand warrants before letting an officer in your house, then get pissed when the drug dealing neighbor is not promptly arrested by the police for using the same reasoning.

Being a cop in America is a hard, dangerous job. Because of our standard of living, every other person feels they have the right to pretty much do as they please, provided they don’t kill or injure anyone. That guy you pulled over for speeding on Tuesday was real polite but on Wednesday his lawyer slaps you with a police brutality suit because you raised your voice to him. That goes in your record forever, even if exonerated. You pull up at a bar where a group of seedy guys are milling about just to break it up and some punk drills you in your bullet proof vest because he not only has a gun, but a joint on him.

Not to mention the day in and day out absolute stupidity, brutality, cruelty, and meanness you run into that people do to each other over nothing. Joe Smith took his steak knife and rammed it through Bobby Doe’s left eye because he wouldn’t give him a cigarette. Lawanda Jones just opened up Mr. Jones big belly all the way to his liver because he ‘dissed’ her. Billy Bob just beat his ‘wummin’s’ face into mush because she ‘sassed’ him and no ‘wummin’ sasses no real man.’ 'Course, the fact that he is 6 foot 2, weighs in at 300 pounds of muscle and she is 5 foot 0, at 90 pounds doesn’t mean anything. It don’t bother him none that she’ll spend 6 months in the hospital having her face replaced. After all, she deserved it.

Don’t expect a cop to be like average people.

35

**

I seem to remember a recent riot in LA where the police were nearly helpless. In fact I recall seeing looters taunting the police or ignoring them as they looted. Sure in the end the riot ended but it didn’t end because of the police or the national guard.

Marc

36

Some would take issue over the order to disperse at all. Something about peacefully assembling (damn that bill of rights). Certainly there are examples of police not allowing protesters to leave an area before attacking (or simply not giving any warning at all). There are also examples where the police gave ample time to leave, but such orders were blatant violations of basic freedoms.

I say police trample rights, laws and liberty. They think nothing of a warrant less raid, confiscating material based on content, shutting down dissenting news organizations, spying on legal activist groups without cause, interfering with lawful protest activities or enforcing a illegal police state*. They are a militarized force, to react to threats to the power of the state. That is why they always win. They are largely unencumbered by the laws they claim to enforce.

I should point out that I do know of some very nice and personable cops; People who actually care. They are, however, part of a violent institution.

*Incidentally, the events I’m thinking of which these comments refer to all happened within the last year or two. Similar (and sometimes more egregious) examples can be found throughout history.

37

SHORT sez:

Without the police, anarchy reigns. Every man then becomes the law unto himself and interprets the law according to his desires, which mostly infringes on the rights of others. History is full of such situations, where in the strongest with the most weapons and followers prey on the weaker, creating and enforcing ‘laws’ which benefit themselves.

We live now in a situation where any disgruntled citizen can obtain military style weapons, explosives, bullet proof armor, and instructions on any form of guerrilla warfare they desire and most police departments are not equipped to handle such power. Few, if any, police patrol cars are bullet proof and vests only cover the chest and back, but are useless against easily obtained Teflon coated slugs. Few, if any, patrol cars carry weapons more powerful than a shotgun. Most police departments provide the officers only with a .38 as a fire arm, leaving it up to the officers to buy their own higher powered weapon.

Remove the cops and chances are pretty good that your own neighbors will turn on you.

In most ‘peaceful’ assemblies of a large amount of people, there are always a few there willing to start trouble but the presence of watching police prevent them. Even in something as innocent as a fare or circus, there are those who would start trouble if not for police being around.

A good example is the British ‘Soccer Hooligans’, who go to games to start fights, which have resulted in deaths.

38

(sarcasm)You ever hear of that thing called the U.S. civil war?
I think it happened about 140 years ago…(/sarcasm)

Doesn’t that qualify as a major revolution?

39

I will not say police are unnecessary, but I will say police violating laws is worse than having no police at all. Remember, this is why I say police are “invincible:” they act as a law unto themselves. I will say a police state is unnecessary (legal or not).

I’ll believe it when I see a “just say no to drugs” march provoke a violent police response :slight_smile: .

With all due respect, you are ignoring the fact that the police are generally the ones who pick the fight. Perhaps outside the political arena (and outside my experience), there are crowds spoiling for a fight. But within political demonstrations, police violence is virtually always instigated by the police.

Yes, sometimes police do a good job keeping demonstrations safe. And sometimes they make the situation far more dangerous.

40

“In revolutions the world over, people have always fought against cops, sometimes successfully.”
TC, we don’t have a revolution going on now. Beatle is right; there is no serious revolutionary movements going on right now. (Most of the militia members I know are not interested in overthrowing this society. They believe it is soon going to collapse, and they intend to pick up the pieces.)

“In America, it’s a different story. Here, the police cannot be attacked, ignored, eluded, defied, or persuaded to switch sides. They ALWAYS win in the end.”
This is simply not true. Look at the number of officers murdered every year in the line of duty. Furthermore, I beat the cops nearly two years ago when they wanted to arrest me. They had six squad cars and a canine unit surrounding my little Chevy pick-up, but I still beat the rap thanks to some quick thinking, the brains to stick to my story and the grace of God.

“I would be hard-pressed to think of any case in the last twenty years in which U.S. law enforcement personnel have been attacked, and the attackers “won” or got away clean, or have been prevented from “going after” someone they really wanted to go after, or have been kept out of anywhere they really wanted to go, or have been openly defied for very long, or have been “turned” against the wealthy and powerful by the actions of the commoners.”
It seems to me that several years ago, an Indian tribe in northern New York defied authorities for several weeks, if not months; of course, that tribe was well-armed. Furthermore, I believe David Koresh and his band of whackos held out for a long time. I also believe some militia types in Montana were able to defy authorities for a relatively long time. Then there was Ruby Ridge, where the authorities proved they weren’t invincible. Also, I think a redneck Baptist church in Indianapolis, aided & abetted by some militia types, is now practicing civil disobedience quite successfully.
Maybe the reason police have not turned on the wealthy and powerful stems from good economic times that see most Americans relatively pleased with our country and not too inclined to hang the rich from sour apple trees.
Incidentally, since the United States has no nobility, I thought all of us, poor and rich alike, are commoners.

“By any objective standard, there are plenty of problems with the cops right now. Here in the LA area, we’ve had corruption, perjury, unwarranted or “mistaken” shootings, attacks on legal demonstrations, even membership in police “gangs”. (Are we the only part of the country that has had that?) Clearly, if cops do not always do the right thing, then it is a problem for cops to think they are as invincible as Superman.”
Don’t know much about California politics. I would suggest you and others who feel as you do might spend less time on the 'Net and watching TV and more time working to correct the problem. Chas E sounds like a natural ally of yours. I think corruption can be found all over the country, and I think it isn’t going to go away, at least until we humans become extinct or evolve into something higher. I’m not holding my breath on either possibility.

I live in rural Indiana, tc, and my own opinion is that most police officers in this area are reasonably efficient and civil, especially if you treat them like they are human beings rather than stormtroopers (although I have heard rumors of cops beating up some people and one incident in Jackson County where a police officer allegedly murdered a kid, but nothing was ever done about it). I have had several cops give me breaks, breaks that I perhaps did not deserve. But then I usually try to address the officers in a civil fashion rather than calling them fascist motherfuckers. My own personal opinion is that police will never be better than the society they serve.

“If “defecting” means breaking the code of silence, telling your partners to lay off a suspect, or even physically restraining your fellow officers from going too far, I don’t see what’s so bad about that. If “defecting” means helping a criminal to get away, I think there are a few cases of that, especially when the officer is a relative or friend of the perpetrator, e.g. Rafael Perez and the CRASH unit.”
I agree that the boys and girls in blue are thicker than thieves, but doctors, lawyers and journalists also cover each other’s asses. In all cases, the basic reason is the same: You have people of similar temperament and training who do the same job and sympathize with their colleagues.

Al: I’ve heard of Bull Connor, but that happened nearly half a lifetime ago. Why pick on the South when you could mention some of the alleged brutalities that have happened during Mayor Rudolph Gulliani’s tenure?

Short: I looked at those pictures and they didn’t impress the hell out of me. I mean, the police were just standing there; they weren’t beating the hell out of anyone.

“Those arrested were charged with pedestrian interference, aggressive begging, and failure to disperse (according to the independent media center).”
I hate to tell you this, Short, but I and other citizens have just as much right to walk down the street as you do to protest. If you impede my lawful path, I think you should be arrested. Or else the cops should look the other way while I knock the hell out of you. Furthermore, peaceful assembly does not mean you and your allies get to occupy the streets 24 hours a day; if the order to disperse was lawful, your allies should have dispersed. I think the courts have upheld that the authorities may set some reasonable limits on public assemblies. Also, why do WTO protestors think aggressive begging should be tolerated by society? Sounds to me like you all went to Seattle with the intent to cause trouble and then whined when the police obliged you.

Am I glad the police don’t kill people very often (they use “less lethal” tactics today)? Sure. Is this all we can expect of the state: not to kill very many of us? I think we can do better."
We probably could, but this still beats Tiammenam Square (sorry, I don’t know how to spell this exactly).

The fact of the matter is (to return to the original post), police win because they will beat down butterflies with baseball bats. Never trust a para-military force to keep the peace."
Who, then, do you trust to keep the peace?

“I say police trample rights, laws and liberty. They think nothing of a warrant less raid, confiscating material based on content, shutting down dissenting news organizations, spying on legal activist groups without cause, interfering with lawful protest activities or enforcing a illegal police state*. They are a militarized force, to react to threats to the power of the state. That is why they always win. They are largely unencumbered by the laws they claim to enforce.”
Since this is Great Debates, do you want to provide some cites to back this up?

“I’ll believe it when I see a “just say no to drugs” march provoke a violent police response.”
I’ve seen plenty of protests in Bloomington, Ind., and none provoked a police response. Know why? The groups involved, including labor groups that hate the WTO as much as you do and pro-Palestinian factions that are very critical of America, played by the rules.

“I will not say police are unnecessary, but I will say police violating laws is worse than having no police at all.”
Short, I am going to risk Gadarene jumping on my neck for two days in a row by saying that this is one of the most assinine statements I have ever read. If all police were fired tomorrow, you would have a state of anarchy. That would mean all those right-wing militias you fear would make their play for power and certain fundamentalist groups would immediately attempt to establish theocracies in their neck of the woods. This is just for starts as the criminals would also run wild and then you would have the military imposing martial law to try to save the country. Get a clue, Short; if anarchy comes, you and your fellow WTO protestors are going to be the first ones eliminated or enslaved because you don’t know how to fight and your “peaceful protests” aren’t going to mean shit against the guns and knives of your enemies.

For the record, I have been arrested twice, should have been arrested at least five more times, have seen police loading tear-gas guns when I marched the White House, have warned an acquaintance that police were probably tapping her phone, have had a cop write down my license plate number because I was meeting with other people to do something about a corrupt local politician, and have been frustrated because some of the local cops wouldn’t send an officer to investigate footsteps on the roof the office building where I was working (even though several other offices had been burglarized recently through the roof).
I still think police have one of the most demanding jobs possible, and I think the majority honestly do their best. It is not easy being a cop, especially when you have to deal with people like me.