No sooner said than done. Every single part of that post that I do know about are absolute unsubstantiated nonsense. That doesn’t bode well for the parts I don’t know about. Satori really shouldn’t post crap about animal nutrition on boards with residents who have training in anmal nutrition if he doesn’t want us to call crap.
Satori you have book clearly intended to promote vegetaianism form which you have obviously plagiarised that garbage. I have a book by a gentleman called von Daniken clearly proving that aliens have visited the Earth for thouands of years, and another by a gentleman called Hovind proving that dragons once existed and that there is one living in the Congo. ‘Facts’ by biased sources are treated with little respect around here, especially when they are in direct conflict with what has been published in scientific journals such as the ones I have referenced. I suspect your entire course of study on this has consisted of reading that book and others like it. I suggest you go out and learn a little about animal nutrition before you start spouting feed conversion values to me OK. Your facts don’t even agree with each other, let alone the real world.
You have so far presented no reputable facts and absolutely zero evidence to convince me you are informed enough on anything to make an opinion.
You have been preaching and thumping your particular Holy Book, no more. Whether you are doing this in an attempt to sell more books is unclear, but when someone turns up on a board and every second post gives out the name and title of a publication I tend to be a little sceptical. If this is the case you’ve chosen a bad market. I can’t think of anyone on this board who wouldbuy such a clearly psuedoscientific publication. Added to that teh throurough gutting I gave to your ‘facts’ in my above post, and the coup de grace that Anthracite will doubtless deliver when I post your energy consumption figures over in GQ are hardly likely to make anyone buy it. It’s obviusly chock full of lies.
Thank you Gaspode, I felt compelled to respond to some of the misinformation in Satori’s post but decided to read further, because I was sure someone else would. Saved me some time.
Gaspode: you swallow your truth from the folks at The National Corn Growers Association and Farmcentre.com, I swallow mine from folks like John Robbins.
“There are numerous laws that require feedlots to have eitehr ‘in house’ sewage systems or arrange for it to be transported to a facility approved by the EPA.”
Yes. And there are numerous laws prohibiting people from using illegal drugs, killing one another, and running red lights. The existence of laws does not eradicate that which is prohibited. It is no secret that the laws to which you refer are hardly enforced (something discovered by that guy who wrote that book I read, the one you seem so bent on discrediting.
“‘Facts’ by biased sources are treated with little respect around here”
I’d look at your own. They’re from groups as biased as anyone else. The National Corn Growers Association? Did you check in with the Meat and Dairy Foundation as well? Your arguments incline me to think that you’d be willing to go to the NRA’s literature to refute groups who want gun control laws, or the tobacco industry’s “research” to denounce those who think cigarettes are unhealthy. It’s easy to take postions that are not only the accepted norm, but propogated and perpetuated by big money and big business as well.
I couldn’t agree more, but there’s also the issue of reacting to what people say in a reasonable way and respecting it. In his post on the first page, Gaspode said that vegetarians have “a nasty habit” of saying things that he doesn’t agree with, such as that vegetarian diets are healthier than others. Are vegetarian diets actually healthier? Obviously, there are a million articles, books, etc… arguing in either direction. Your best bet is to read a variety of arguments from both sides and then make your own educated decision. However, it’s not going to be easy to have a civilized discussion of the topic if you instantly dismiss anybody who disagrees with you as an ignorant jackass.
Yep, I know, it’s impossible to have a conversation with somebody who instantly dismisses you. Which is why I went on to say :
Not that I think anybody here is a troll, but if you are in the situation I described above, the best course of action IMHO is to not feed the ignoramus !
FTR, It’s not just one side going on about the other side. Both idiotic omnivores and stupid vegetarians try to convert or show the others the error of their ways. They are both fools. Please don’t say “oh, it’s the silly vegetarians that shove their views down my throat” or “the dumb omnivores keep trying to make me eat meat”. Wake up people, it’s both sides of the equation that indulge in this stupid behaviour ! And it is stupid behaviour !
No, what I said is they have a nasty habit of of making statemnts based on ignorance. Nothing to do with whether I agre with them or not. Tell me you vote Democrat, tell me you worship Satan, tell me you smoke crack, it’s all good. I don’t agree with any of it but you can state that as fact, just as you can state that you are vegetarian. Tell me you vote Democrat because if you don’t the world will run out oil and us Republicans are responsible for it, tell me you worship Satan because athiests amd Christians kill more animals, tell me you smoke crack because it’s healthier and you’re making statements based on ignorance. See the difference? The rubbish Satori just posted is a classic example of what I mean. I don’t assume anyone is an ignorant jackass until he proves himself to be so.
Satori,
The The National Corn Growers Association and Farmcentre based there figure on US Dept of Ag statistics. What, you think they’ve gor a vested interest in talking down their own markets? Even if it were lies, why should we believe a your lies over mine? At least my lies are corroborated by the US government. And finally you have failed to address the figures form reputable agricultural journals and peer-reviewed texts that contradict your claims, the inherent contradictions in your own claims re water use and the claims from the USGS, the only body capable of collecting statistics on water use, that state that your stats are pure BS.
And yes laws get broken, that’s not the point. You stated that “there are no sewage systems to treat any of it.”. Obviously if that were true every feedlot in the US would be fined. Do you expect the posters on these laws have never been enforced even once? If this is the case why don’t you give me the name of one such establishment and I will personlly notify the EPA and force them to take action. That should be fair enough since apparetly all the ones you know of are breaking these laws.
Lets see now, we have your ‘facts’, ever one of which is based on one book and every one of those that can be scientifically verified has been shown to be an outright lie. Then we have my figures that may be impartial but then nothing I’ve posted yet has been a lie. Who has a credibility problem here. Me and the US Corngrowers, or Mr. von Robinson?
But if you really wnat to play duelling cites lets rock. Tell me which figures of mine you dispute and I’ll get the source data. Of course you have to give us the source data for Mr. von Robinson’s claims as well.
The above comments (after Satori entered the thread) are exactly why the OP was asking the question.
One says such and such is right, the other says such and such is right and no matter how you put it, it all comes down to the fact that once (and I don’t stress all) a vegetarian enters into a discussion of to veg or not to veg it comes down to unsubstantiated facts. In this case, Satori has full faith in the writings of one person here.
Which is why, it is best for vegetarians and omnivores alike to stay away from it.
If you know you are having a vegetarian (or several) at a party you are throwing, do them a favor and offer some vegetarian foods, same goes for vegetarians. If you as a vegetarian (hey all us omnivores eat some kind of vegetarian dishes, I am mostly vegetarian anyway) can’t stand the fact that you should consider their desires too, then ask a close friend to make and bring a meat dish. But for God’s sakes, get over the fact that most omnivores (even those of us that have considered a strict vegetarian diet) choose not to because of our own informed decisions.
How’s them apples? (you can include road apples in that too.)
Damnit, I forgot to add, I buy organic whenever I can. Including organically fed and grown meat…if that’s not a step in the right direction, don’t know what is.
Oh yeah, and my veggies are mostly organic, but damn the stuff is expensive.
I can and have substantiated all of my statements and will provide yet more cites if requested. This isn’t one side says A is right nad the other side says B is right. Satori has said that animals have a protein conversion ratio of 5% and 75 years of scientific knowledge has said he is wrong. Ditto for water consumption, gross feed conversion, animal water usage and virtually anything else he posted.
Satori has cheerfully suggested that we meatatarians use 99% of the worlds oil, all deforestation is attributable to us, we endorse animal cruelty and aid third world starvation amongst other anti-social comments. No one had at that point said anything anti-vegetarian and even with that provocation few people have.
It all comes down to the fact that once (and I don’t stress all) a vegetarian enters into a discussion that has nothing to do with veg or not to veg it comes down to unsolicited, unwanted and unsubstantiated opinion and witnessing on the part of the vegetarian and supported facts and logic on the part of the meatatarian.
That at least has been my experience both on these boards and IRL and it has been fully vindicated by Satori on this thread and various vegetraians on other threads. YMMV.
I wasn’t refuting what you had to say, in fact I liked what you had to say but if you look at my first post in this thread, I mentioned that there are militant vegetarians out there. Satori pops in with one book that has statements about why vegetarianism is better and only one source that we know of. I am not going to waste my time going to the library or bookstore to look up all the sources that the author brings up, you on the other hand gave us solid refrences that we can use in our own judgement.
Again, it’s usually militant vegetarians that get on a band wagon like this, he/she claims not to be be with the writing of the post, I disagree. It just proves what was said prior to him/her entering the thread.
You can cite sources from all over the place and Satori will unlikely waiver and admit maybe that there are 1) two sides of the story or 2) the author of the book was pulling this from sources that are exclusively vegetarian oriented.
BTW, I hear coffee is bad for you one day, it’s okay the next. I hear butter is bad for you but okay the next. I hear wine is bad for you one day but okay the next. I hear eggs are bad for you one day but bad the next.
Which leads me to believe that foods and drinks we all have been drinking for literally thousands of years is good for you in moderation. Shit even some sunlight is good for the absorbtion of Vitamin D but we are told all year long to wear long sleeves, sunscreen and cover our faces.
I think the idea that “no animal protein in ones diet is the best for you and the planet” to be ludicrious, which I have tried hard to to say throughout this whole thing.
I’d just like to draw evryone’s attention to the treatment Satori’s oil consumption figures are recieving over in GQ.
It may surprise someone to find out that they too are lies. The reasearch that has gone into them is so bad that they even understate US oil imports by millions of barrels a day, a fact that would have been to von Robinson’s advantage. The man has eitehr simply made his facts up, based them on hideously out of date documents or else is relying on other vegetarian tomes. I suspect the latter, it often happens in crusade literature where the apprentices follow the master without criticising or verifying his work.
“The National Corn Growers Association and Farmcentre based there figure on US Dept of Ag statistics… Even if it were lies, why should we believe a your lies over mine? At least my lies are corroborated by the US government.”
That you would take corroboration by the US government or any of it’s departments as enough to accredit anything, let alone lies, with your belief therein - this fact is enough for me to respectfully agree to disagree. I think it is pretty obvious that we will not (or maybe even cannot) meet eye to eye on this. I wonder if we could on anything at this point.
I do not have the time or inclination to post every citation and footnote in John Robbins’ book. If it would make you happy to find the book and systematically discredit every point the man makes by going to the industry he criticizes and the government that supports it, then go enjoy doing so. If that is your intention, then you will succeed.
Must agree with whoever said that discussions will be easier if you don’t dismiss as idiots those who have a different idea about something than you. I have never once said I was “right”, only that I have what works for me, and yes, I believe the things asserted by John Robbins in his book as more truthful than what governments or large industries would have us believe. His research was substantive enough to cement those ideas as facts. Whoever keeps insisting that they are not must live in a fact free world, because by his logic, it’s all subjective interpretation, ergo, there are no facts.
I’m happy that you are absolutely certain in your convictions. The arguments you’ve offered haven’t convinced me that mine are invalid, but that’s really okay. At least I’m open to being convinced. I didn’t set out to change anyone’s mind - I only offered some information I know of. I’m frankly amazed at the response. It’s been more of an education than I could ever have hoped for.
It’s threads like these that make me love my mousewheel. Scroll, scroll, scroll.
My take on the actual question. I don’t like being told what I should do, or how I should live. I eat meat, I love meat, I’m not a big fan of vegetables. You want to eat meat? Great. You don’t want to eat meat? Great. I would never make any comments to a vegetarian about their dietary choices, and I expect the same courtesy in return. It’s the proselytizing that bugs me. Or when someone says something like “Killing an animal is morally equivalent to killing a human being.” That sort of thing ends the conversation right then and there for me.
Of course I never said any such thing. What I did say was that at least my source was backed by the US governemnet, not that such backing played any role in my credulity. I think most dopers have more faith in the uS govt. than some stranger on a message board quoting from an author with no credibility.
Given the fact that you appear happy to ignore facts and logic and post opinions based on writings that have been throughly discredited within hours of their appearance I doubt that you would see eye to eye with myself or most of the people around here. Science and facts count for a lot more tahn ignorance and opinion around here. But that’s just our quaint country way.
I only want you to provide me with the cites relating to that which has been posted and on which you disput my sources. Tahts a grand toatal of three points concerning US corn and oats utilisation. No one wants every citaion and footnote, only the few from which he drew those erroneous conclusions which are at odds with US Dept. of Ag.
All that would make me happy is to see a cessation to the distribution and broadcasting of ignorance in this world. Actually if people like you would cease to post ignorant lies on these boards I would be far happier. von Robinson has been discredited in this thread not by the industry and government that supports meatatarianism but by scientists in peer reviewed independant journals. I’ve provided the citations to the articles, go and find them, I didn’t make it up and their results are reproducible and in keping with established fact, unlike von Robinsons work.
I only dismiss as idiots those who have ideas that are based on proven lies and errancies and refuse to change despite this. Peolpe who cling to their ignorance are idiots. People who have different ideas are fine. People who have no idea are the only idiots IMHO.
Yes you have. You prefaced that load of lies, propaganda, witnessing and spam with “It’s a fact that” and then followed it with a load of rubbish.
Oh God it’s a conspiracy which includes not only government and industry but at least three independant scientific journals (actually far more, those were jsut the first three that turned up on Ovid, it’s hardly original research and goes back at least 75 years), the entire medical community, the US oil industry (who for some reason lied in the right direction to support von Robinson’s claims but whom he still refused to believe), several Universities, the peak Australian reasearch organistaion and almost all mass media.
Yep that’s more believable than one man being a crackpot and a liar with a ‘cause’.
All the same I think i’ll apply Ockham’s razor and just assume von Robinson is a nut.
His reasearch failed to even turn up informatin that supported him (see GQ). If this was substantive enough to cement your ideas I have to say that IMHO your views were pretty adamantine before von Robinson appeared because this cement couldn’t hold Leggo bricks together.
Facts are not subjective. The facts I presented are backed by scientific experimentation, are completely replicable and definitely not subjective. von Robinson’s assertion on the otehr hand are in contradiction to all facts and are not subjective, they’re just plain wrong. Their are plenty of facts, von Robinson just doesn’t base his opinions on them, apparently preffering ignorance and opinion.
I’m not, I’m absolutley certain however that von Robinson has lied to you and that you have attempted to impose those lies on the members of this board.
I haven’t offered any arguments whatsoever. All I have offered is information, facts, science, citations from reputable journals and texts and mathematical solutions. If information and facts can’t convince you then you base your beliefs on ignorance. That’s fine, just don’t push it around here and expect us to swallow it.
You offer ignorant factoids, spam and outright lies on a message board dedicated to fighting ignorance, it’s met with skepticism, facts, and refutation and that amazes you? What amazes me is how easily you’ve gotten off. I’ve been assuming you were simply misled and would be open to independnt facts.
Yes, I think leaving would be a good thing. I don’t quite think you’d fit in on these boards. Fighting ignorance and all that.
Getting slightly back to the original discussion, I have heard many things about how Vegitarians lack cetain nutrients in their diet. Someone mentioned vitamin B12 earlier on.
I’m on omnivore and am not going to change. I like meat. However I am interested in learning - so what is the deal with which is healthier? Is there anywhere I can read the pros and cons with regards to health for vegitarianism and omnivorism?
Um, sorry, but no, it isn’t. I said (or meant to say…) that the vegetarians I was speaking of got pissed when they met non-vegetarians who were ignorant. That’s all. I didn’t mean to imply that all non-vegetarians are clueless, or that all vegetarians hate all non-vegetarians. I was trying to speak from my specific memory of the type of incidents mentioned in the OP.
To support your point, however, I have known a great many non-vegetarians who were educated on this matter. Me, for instance.
Do you know how fucking long it’s been since I was at an Outback? I love that place! Oh, the Bloomin’ Onions, the Outback Special, the Tall Bloke of Foster’s, the rich, warm black bread, and to finish…either the Cheescake Olivia or the Chocolate Thunder from Down Under!
Oh yeah. Why did it infuriate me? Because I’m hungry!!!
Hey Phil, IIRC you eat eggs and milk, yes? This means you can have the desserts, I hope…? Chocolate Thunder from Down Under…drool…
