It doesn’t really matter. I foresee at least one of the other two perps starting shit up again.
[Moderator Underoos On]This is IMHO. You all know how to behave in IMHO.
The personal attacks, swearing, and appeals to the Authority Of Choice will stop now.[/Moderator Underoos On]
I myself am not interested in the argument enough to take it elsewhere… But I can’t let Gaspode’s last post stand. Guy, Nearly all of the beef available to North American consumers come through feedlots. It’s the norm.
http://www.aps.uoguelph.ca/~gking/beef.htm
http://www.cattle.ca/Acc/04beef/product.html
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/aboutind/products/livestck/beef.htm
It’s very hard to find beef that hasn’t come through a feedlot. You certainly won’t find it in a supermarket. On the other hand, you don’t have to go out of your way very much to get soap that isn’t made with concentration-camp inmates.
Jesus Christ.
This is why I made the Diesel analogy. It is possible to find a better alternative… But the economic reality is such that most people don’t. Would you say “Diesel trucks hardly pollute at all”, because if someone really wants to, they can use a cleaner fuel in them?
[Looks around for hat.]
Buh-bye.
It’s nearly impossible to find domestic olives in supermarkets. Would you say producing olives requires American soil?
If have a philosophical objecton to foreign imports am I forbidden form eating olives. Am I hypocritical for eating domestic olives?
If a morally acceptable product is difficult to find, it’s is, IMHO, still morally unacceptable to consume it and it’s still a lie if I say that all types of that product are morally unsound.
:gingerly tiptoeing in:
I am not even going to touch most that has come before me, but I want to add a certain point.
As a vegetarian, I have made it clear that I just don’t wanna eat meat. Eat whatever you want, but leave me alone.
Yet, (as pldennison has pointed out) if you search this board, you will find that most of the angry tbreads on this subject were instigated by meat eaters, who feel that the vegetarians are “looking down” on them. And I’d just like to say (as I have said many times before) “When I ‘look down’ on you, give me hell for it. But I am NOT ‘looking down’ on you when I refuse to eat meat, or simply state that I am a vegetarian.”
Yet, truth be told, that’s usually all it takes to set some people off. As soon as they discover you are a veggie, they start in. And yet, they seem to have the attitude that it’s all because we “looked down” on them. Well, where? WHERE? Why can’t we just be allowed to eat our veggies in peace? Of course there are obnoxious, in-your-face veggies, so take it up with them. Wait until they start bugging you, and take it up with them. Leave the rest of us the hell alone.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mudshark *
**
I like vegetables, too. I want a healthy balanced diet. You’re saying because he won’t eat meat, I’m not allowed to eat vegetables!
These people are fascists :mad:
Yes, I will explain why.
My authority, expertise and outstanding knowledge on this topic is self evident. For those who must have a cite, that cite is me. I am correct because I ***know ***I’m correct. [sub] for god’s sake, don’t jump on me, my tongue is so far in my cheek, it’s actually tickling the outer rim of my ear ! [/sub] 
O.K. The great and wise answer you have all been waiting for is…[sub]drumroll please[/sub]
Because there is dickhead, moronic, brain-washed, narrow-minded, intolerant vegetarians AND non-vegetarians on this planet. That is why they piss each other off. If both groups respected each other, there would be no problem.
N.B Please note, I realise not all people disrespect each other, I’m referring to the dickhead, moronic, etc… ones.
[sup]Noting Czarcasm’s comment: Uh, read “Jeepers,” for JC. ;)[/sup]
[ul][li]Disinformation spread by zealots.[/ul]satori’s post illustrated that there is a lot of bad info and outright propaganda spread around by certain types of “militant” vegetarians. I’m sure after one or two run-ins with those, a lot of non-veg folks lose tolerance for vegetarians. “Oh, god, not another one.”[ul]Politicization of the issue.[/ul]Who knows why this happens? Some people seem to latch on to one side of the argument and get rabid about it. As I’ve stated before, my dietary choice is my own. It’s just for my health. I’m not about to push it on anyone else, and I’m not about to accept a bunch of “received wisdom” as Gospel. I think that I’m relatively objective.[/li]
At first, I didn’t bother to read Gaspode’s critique of satori’s summary of Diet for a New America. I know how slanted and misleading John Robbins is. Nevertheless, I see that Gaspode, while being pretty much on the mark, did feel compelled to add a couple unsubtantiated whoppers, eg:
He also demonstrated a knee-jerk reaction to moderate and uncontroversial statements made by VeraGemini and myself about cattle production, and took the conversation into a realm pretty far removed from consensus reality. We’re talking about things that the Beef industry holds as trueisms. His response seemed to be, “You’re vegetarian, so you’re wrong,” and his arguments suddenly went from being pretty sensible to being completely whacked. What was that?
Anyway, that’s a digression. It’s clear that it’s an emotional issue for some.
I think the closest thing to answer to the OP that we’re going to get is “Because some vegetarians and some omnivores feel it’s an issue worth arguing about.”
[PREVIEWS]
Dude, I’m trying to make sense of that analogy. Or is it just some sort of dadaist literary offering? (That last bit reads like a Zen koan.) Where did “hypocrital”, and “morally unacceptable,” come into it? Listen very carefully, I’m only going to repeat this once:
That’s right. It’s okay! Have you interpreted my statement “I am vegetarian,” as “I think that it is morally unacceptable for anyone to eat meat?”
Argh!
What is it that compels vegetarians and meat-eaters to act like such complete pricks over another person’s personal choice?
ITR champion,
Get a grip.
I never made any comment whatsoever on whether you beleieved vegetarian diets to be healthy. I agree wholeheartedly that it is an unsettled question. You however stated that "Gaspode said that vegetarians have “a nasty habit” of saying things that he doesn’t agree ". I never said any such thing and went on to explain in no uncertain terms what I did say. I did not say that vegetarians have a nasty habit of saying things I don’t agree with. I said vegetarians have a nasty habit of of making statements based on ignorance. If you don’t make your statements based on ignorance I have no problem with your views on the health benefits of your dietary choices. You misquoted me and I corrrected you. You are now misrepresenting me again by implying that I accused you of saying that vegetarian diets are always healthier than meat-based diets and that I have accused you of being an ignorant jackass. I stated quite clearly that I only consider people to be ignorant jackasses when they prove themselves to be so, and that I only have a problem with vegetarians who insist on making statements based on ignorance. If you feel that you fit in either of those groups then, yes I do have a problem with you, but since you never identified yourself as a proven jackass or ignoramous WTF is your problem?
VeraGemini,
That was posted as evidence for your statement that “that a balanced vegetarian diet is healthier than the “average” Western diet.”?
You do understand the difference between “Limit your intake of high-fat foods, particularly from animal sources.” and “Adopt a vegetarian diet” don’t you? Vegetaran diets can be higher in staurated fats than someone who eats exclusively at Mcdonald’s. That statement and your other quotations support only that excess meat is unhealthy, not that a vegetarian diet is healthier than the “average” Western diet. There is a world of difference. No one disputes that high saturated fat levels are bad, now all you have to show is that by adopting a vegetarian diet you remove those fats while not increasing any other helath risks at the same time.
Great, duelling cites,
A recent study in the United Kingdom showed that vegetarian children had similar fat intakes to non-vegetarian children (Nathan et al, 1994).
As for the rest of it: as I said before, it is impossible to separate the fact that vegetarians are as a group more health and diet concious than the general population from the effect that alone has on obesity, heart disease, high blood pressure etc. The fact that those things are lower in vegetarians is not evidence that the diet is in any way responsible. That is why you have failed to post eveidence for your statement. The fact that vegetraians are healthier does not in any way support the fact that vegetarian diets are healthier. Married men are healthier too, does that mean that wearing wedding rings has a health benefit? Do you understand how coincidence =/= proof.
I have no axe to grind with vegetarians, just as I have no axe to grind with fundamentalists, holocaust deniers or racialists. But as with all those groups I do have a problem when they make statements based on ignorance.
Fair cop, you got me. Guilty as charged
I admit (somewhat ashamedly) I shouldn’t have used the word will there. It was completely out of place and certainly misleading. I never intended to use it and should have said “their is evidence that eating no meat can have negative health effects”, as supported by the cite given above.
The comment is withdrawn and I apologise unreservedly for any offense caused.
Mea culpa.
Larry Mudd,
In keeping with the warning, care to take this here?
I don’t know how it could be an issue for anyone. I’ve only known two vegetarians and I never made an issue of what they ate and they never made an issue of what I ate. If I invited them over to my place for a BBQ I was always sure to accomodate their dietary requirements because that’s what a good host should do.
Marc
One thing I have to say - the endorsement of Alan Alda (or Jeff Goldblum, Ted Danson, or Mel Gibson) is normally enough by itself to make me lose complete respect for a cause - any cause. Even my own. I don’t know what makes actors of all people think that because they play some part of being a scientist or doctor, that they actually know something about…well, about anything really.
Another thing to note if you are planning a BBQ - often, you should use two grills. Vegetarians may like grilling vegetables, but not on the same grill that has meat sizzling on it. It’s likely polite to seperate the cooking areas, if possible I guess - most people don’t have two grills to spare.
Ah, the fat just drips through the cracks and chars on the coal. It don’t bother me none. 
Satori wrote
I’m going to assume that you honestly don’t understand, so I’ll explain:
As I pointed out before, if a person is not average, it is unkind and inappropriate to refer to him as “abnormal”. Even though it is accurate.
If a person wears glasses, it is unkind and inappropriate to refer to him as “crippled”. Even though it is accurate.
If a person’s parents weren’t married, it is unkind and inappropriate to refer to him as a “bastard”. Even though it is accurate.
Accuracy in words is not everything. Words have meanings and tones that go far beyond their dictionary definition.
If you still don’t understand, I’d like to suggest you go get further education by finding a large bespecelled black man of unmarried parents and refer to him as a “abnormal crippled bastard nigger”. Perhaps he can further enlighten you. And when you’re done with that discussion, please ask him why he chooses to eat the flesh of animals.
Good Lord. I posted here, then went home for the night, and came back to this train wreck.
I’m going out to grab a burger. If any of y’all unzealous vegetarians want to come, they also serve killer salads.
However, no offense to those who choose to eat it, but tofu is an abomination. Not 'cause it’s a veggie dish, but because it isn’t even food. Blecch.
Well, the thing about tofu, it pretty much tastes like whatever you cook it in. So it’s okay if you cook it in, say, bacon grease.
Why exclude those groups? Religious food nuts are the worst, because they believe in fairytails and insist other people buy into this. “Special dietary” is OK, I guess, if you mean allergies, but not if you mean “hand squished dough is nobler than machine squished frozen dough, so I will whine at you for going to certain chain pizza places.”
deep breath
I am an omnivore, but I live in a very liberal university town where vegetarians are as much the norm as meat-eaters.
Why do meateaters and vegetarians fuss so much? For the same reason that pro-choice and pro-lifers, anti-gun and pro-gun fanatics, and pro- and anti- death penalty believers can’t get along. One group believes that murder is involved, and so questions of morals, values, and religion come into play. The other group doesn’t believe murder is involved and doesn’t want to be told what to do. Now, as a non-fan of murder in the man vs. man arena, I consider myself someone who opposes and fights against murder when I can. Fortunately, I don’t have to fight it much. As someone who happens to eat meat, I also happen to NOT see meat as murder, so I’m not subsequently compelled to fight against it. I also do not see abortion as murder, so I don’t go around killing abortion doctors, bombing clinics, or even simply putting pro-life stickers on my car. As a meat eater, I merely want to be left alone with my steak.
As someone with a reflective component to my conscience, however, I respect a person’s choice to see things differently than I do, and NOT to bash them for those opinions.
While I disagree with much of Satori’s information, and I even question why it was posted to begin with if not for the purpose of “witnessing/converting”, I must commend you on the masterful use of maturity and restraint on this thread. Your statements have been lambasted, torn to pieces, and mocked with no concern for respect of your opinion, your right to state your opinion, or even your right to be wrong without being strung up by your entrails. The disrespect shown to you is a perfect example of why meateaters and vegetarians can’t get along. Hubris.
And gaspode, while I respect your intelligence, I will not be posting a citation for my post since it is all of my own creation. I have cited nothing but my own opinion.
All right, Gaspode, I say we give Satori a chance.
Here’s what you gotta do, Satori: Eliminate the middle man. Sure, it’s all well and good to say “Some guy published a book that says this.” However, if we don’t know where he got that information, then that information is useless.
Did he scour other academic journals and studies? Did he undertake his own study? Or did he pick up a random PETA flyer in the street?
In short, where did your author get his information?
It’s a great deal more complex than that, and not all vegetarians equate the consumption of meat with murder. I’m not going to go into it here, as there are currently three other threads running on the subject, one here and two in the Pit that attempt to explain things in detail.
Just wanted to acknowledge and thank cher3 for making this point.
My sister has been a vegetarian ever since she moved out of our parents’ house at age 18 – like 20 years ago, and our father has never accepted it. Even now, when me and sis visit Dad for dinner, he feels compelled to make flippant comments at this point (I think he finally gave up on trying to convert her back to meat eating) concerning her vegetarianism. I never thought about his upbringing and the whole WWII thing, but I think it definitely applies to him. He was a teenager during WWII.