What is Original Sin, is it historical, and how do Christ’s teachings relate?
or, more precisely, does obeying Christ’s teachings free the individual from the punishments associated with Original sin as laid out in Genesis 1:17-19:
This is a branch off of Christianity and Love, Part 2.
I will pick this up where I left off, although I already made some confusing statements which may yet come back to haunt me.
For a good overview you may wish to refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, sections 385 through 421. I won’t vouch for all of this, as I haven’t read it yet (what fun would that be?), but I want to work from some common ground. For example, note the following disclaimer from section 406 I noticed:
I have no idea what that even means!
I am wanting to focus primarily in the areas Gaudere and I were pondering. I would split these into the spiritual issue well put in section 387:
And yet, there is also an historical reality to the nature of Original Sin, per section 390:
As Gaudere and I are both atheists, although I’m arguing a precise Christian viewpoint, I submitted to him my theory that this Fall of Man could be very roughly dated to certain enviromental strains (i.e. the drought which has turned much of Babylon/Iraq and northern Africa into desert and an ongoing population boom) which began circa 10,000-8,000 BC and accounted for a real historical “fall” of the proto-Jewish tribe into the bondage of sin. Which, when reading the beginning of Genesis as a parable, would seem to be supported by the text.
Yes, I would say that if you had to put an historical marker upon it, I think that would be the cause. Spiritually I would refer you to the spiritual section above.
Again, I’m arguing the xtian perspective as I see it, and I am uncertain of the date. If you are not separated from God, when your body dies, your soul, in so much as your soul is in no way separate from God, can not die, because God is immortal. And if one lived in a lush, natural Garden, the toil one would have to get food would be very minimal. Maybe picking apples is hard work for Gaudere – she would rather they fall on her head!
There is a cause, both historical and spiritual. And there is a historical and spiritual punishment, which is a result. And there are various other results which we discussed. I listed the wars, the famines, the abject poverty, the weapons of mass destruction, the suffering of the poor and the weak, etc. as some of the evils which have resulted from the Fall of Man.
Gaudere offered that Technology has improved over the past 6000 years, and that man’s lot is therefor better. I maintain in the Spiritual realm, this is not the case.
I also purported that, out of all the religions I am aware of, I believe xtianity has the clearest solution to the punishment aspect of the fall. I concede that an individual following Christ’s teachings would not solve all the problems of the Fall, however I maintain he is free of its punishment. I also considered Christ came when he did because society has reached a certain critical mass, although I have elaborated that yet. I also think that were there enough believers in Christ, another critical mass would be reached, and indeed some of the other results would be lessened.
I won’t make a purely “Pelagianist” argument as mentioned above, I think to achieve the ends of this faith, there must be a spiritual dimension. But, for example:
- Poverty didn’t exist before there was property, and there was a historical time before the fall when there was no property.
- Christ taught, basically, that property is theft. If one does not own property, ones toilings are greatly reduced.
I can also present other examples, and I will try to support them scriptually and present whatever other evidence is needed.