I’m holding a copy of a Punk magazine anthology in my hand, and there’s a feature about the Bay City Rollers. Apparently the singer had sex with a lot of girls, who knew?
As for Springsteen: Punk rock - Wikipedia
David Haselhoff likely had sex with a lot of girls. I’m guessing Punk magazine was fucking with their readers.
I don’t care what Jon Savage had to say, Springsteen wasn’t considered punk by any of my contemporaries. None. Just because someone goofs around with Patti Smith or plays at CBGB doesn’t make them punk. He liked punk, he probably even jammed with various punk bands, but his original music just doesn’t fit in that genre, as broad as it is. Perhaps it was “punk” to say he was punk.
You’re not listening to me. They were referred to that way - no one’s classifying them as punk in the sense it’s understood now. I was only trying to illustrate the fact that punk has always been an elusive term that defies easy categorization.
I understand, and I agree that it’s a pretty broad term. I’m simply saying that it was certainly not commonly thought that those two were punk. I say this as someone who, while not a huge fan of what many people call the more traditional punk (if there is such a thing) such as the Sex Pistols, have always liked people who have a bit of fun with their stuff and are probably considered punk if you broaden it enough. Like this (YouTube, and not a rickroll :)).
Oh yeah, I totally agree with you. I think Ian McKaye said it best: “You didn’t want rules.” Guys like Gang of Four or Rhys Chatham really took that stuff to the next level.
When two people argue about what is punk, though, what are they arguing about? Is it the spirit of confrontation? Deconstruction? This is the question I have the hardest time answering - when someone asks me, I can only go by some inner barometer, I’ve developed. Some stuff is punk, some isn’t. But that’s not very scientific…
I agree that it’s not necessarily easy, but I do think you can always fall back on the general consensus. That was the point I was trying to make earlier, even if I was overly verbose trying to get there. If most people consider it punk, then let’s call it punk. If they don’t, it’s not. I’m also fine with self-identification, but I’m guessing most true punk bands would tell you to bugger off if you asked them to categorize themselves.
About 10 years ago a friend of mine here in Indy started Punk Rock Night at an awesome, historical, nightclub called The Melody Inn. They’ve hosted everyone from local garage punk bands, to tri-state travelling punk bands, to the occasional national or international act. Before that time, I liked punk, but had always considered myself metal (at my very core, lol). Well, it didn’t take long and I was a PRN devotee and having one hell of a blast every Sat night.
I can’t speak to the history of punk, even though I know quite a bit about it. But what punk has come to mean to me gets summed up every Saturday at that little nightclub. I’ve seen some AMAZING bands come through there. Ever heard of Peelander Z? Crazy, hilarious, Japanese punk band that we’ve somehow hosted several times.
Familiar with the Dead Milkmen? Just two weekends ago we had an incredible night listening to Joe Jack play his guitar and regale us with every Dead Milkman song. We also had our own local Danny Thompson do a rousing set of Sloppy Seconds Songs, which was more fun than anyone has a right to in an evening’s time. The sound quality is bad on these videos, skip to minute 8 or so and you might be able to hear something worthwhile (mostly a rowdy crowd screaming lyrics as loud as possible) probably only awesome if you know and love Sloppy Seconds …Danny "Roadkill" Thompson/sloppy seconds live at Melody inn 7/30/11 (almost entire set) - YouTube
Start at 21 min in and you can hear this one:
So Fucked Up, by Sloppy Seconds, sang by Danny Thompson:
Man, what a great night that was. What is punk? It’s DIY. It’s a big bunch of drunk, enthusiastic, screaming, happy, crazies yelling song lyrics at the top of their lungs. And it’s being amongst them and realizing you’re proud that these mental patients are your people and everyone else can suck it.
It’s watching all of your thrashing, tattooed friends glaze over and get teary eyed over Joe Jack singing the Guitar Song. This one isn’t Indy, but our recording was awful and you can get the gist from this one:
So yeah, I love me some punk rock, and feel pretty darn lucky to have this sort of thing going on just a few miles from home every Saturday. Our master of ceremonies has a place we call the Punk Rock Mansion, which is pretty much exactly what it sounds like–a great big, historic home, with weird little rooms and awesome spaces, and a bar.
Some friends of mine in another band actually shot a music video there, starring yours truly. It’s not punk, per se, but it being a local band and a video that I got to star in, I figured it might be of interest.
Hotel Canvas, by State:
I’m the serial killer bitch, just in case you needed clarification on that one, lol.
Just a data point, but the early South African punk scene had no awareness of any American roots to punk. No Ramones, no CBGBs, none of that. Sex Pistols, The Clash and The Jam, that was our Trinity. Punk was British, and what came out of the States was Rock. Except the Dead Kennedies and (oddly enough) the Violent Femmes.
And I’d question the judgement of anyone who considers the Velvet Underground Punk.
I wouldn’t consider VU punk, but they were certainly influential predecessors for punk, and other genres. The old quote goes roughy like this, “Not many people have heard of the Velvet Underground, but everyone who did went out and started their own band.”
http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/velvetunderground.htm
"While hippies were singing about flowers and the Beatles were boring us rigid with St Peppers the Velvets were sticking a spike in their arm and too busy sucking on a ding dong. They gave us a vision where it wasn’t all harmony sweetness and light love and the long winding road. Music could appall as well as appeal to.
For that we love them. Their influence stretches for ever thru Iggy, Jonathan Richman, Patti Smith , Television and Bowie thru punk, the Jesus & Mary Chain, Sisters of Mercy and every alternative band in the universe. It comes as no suprise that ‘Waiting For My Man’ was the most covered UK Punk toon done by among others Eater, The Wasps, Slaughter & The Dogs and the UK Subs. "
She only became PM in '79. By then the Sex Pistols were gone, and London Calling only came out that year. You sure?
I think this “rebellion”, “class structure” BS is a joke. For most punks, punk is or was to rebellion as putting a loud exhaust pipe on the family hatchback your mommy gave you is to a racing car.
I meant to mention Toxic Reasons as a fairly well-known punk band. They are based in Indy, mostly, they’ve been on and off for the better part of 20 years, maybe longer, and they rawk!
The Zero Boys are also from, and around, here. Check 'em out if you wanna get yer punk on. 
Punk was and is doing it yourself. Find your own sound. Play it as you want. Given the age and location of most of these people, it involves playing loudly, incoherently, and awesomely at fairly high speeds to cover over the fact that you don’t actually know three chords.
But mostly it’s about finding your own sound however the hell you want to do it. Punk is dead. Punk can never die.
Do It Yourself.
Thatcher came to power in 1979. Punk had already had its full flowering in Britain by then, and post-punk was beginning to flow. The reaction to Thatcher was more the 2-tone sound, and later the decadence of the New Romantics.
An earlier thread on the topic:
OP, it sounds like you enjoy being your kind of Punk. Total yay. However, your definition of Punk does not fill me with a sense of obligation.
For examples, The Clash were and are awesome.
Yay Joe Jack! I just saw him in Cleveland 2 weeks ago and it was one of the greatest shows of my life!
Not EVERY DM song. They have like 200 + 
Going to see the Milkmen at the Athens Pop Fest on October and I can’t WAIT!
obligatory disclaimer to avoid getting mod-warned, the following is not an insult but rather an appropriate reaction to the above sentiment from one punk to another and is intended in a spirit of good fun:
FUCK YOU!
The Clash rocked harder and were more punk than 99% of all bands past or present. Just because they evolved past the genre (and went up their own navel a bit.) doesn’t change that.
Punk is about DIY music that has something to say and doesn’t fit easily into a box. New Wave is a straw-man when it comes to bands like Blondie or the Talking Heads. It was a label applied by the establishment to talk about music that they couldn’t easily classify and they didn’t fit they stereotype of punk rockers so they had to be given a different name. But the need for that sort of separate title is proof itself of their punk rock status. The Talking Heads were every bit as punk as the Minute Men who were just as punk as Minor Threat who were every bit as punk as The Dead Kennedy’s who were just as punk as The Clash.
And the Beastie Boys were as punk as Blondie.
(No, that is not a joke. Either way.)
Interestingly, the Beasties are pretty much the only group that’s still around and making new music these days, and it’s evolved a lot past their hardcore beginnings. Great stuff, too.
I still think their instrumental album qualifies as punk as fuck, too. Way more than Public Image Ltd.
Which is a more polite way of saying noise and attitude. 
So, I win the thread?
You’re looking at this as music. Music is always just music. A punk band today could play wonderful original pure punk and get nowhere, though. A music genre is music that resonates through the larger society. Rock became a genre in the times of civil rights and Vietnam. But look at what happened next.
New York City hit bottom, a hellhole that the middle class was fleeing by the hundreds of thousands. 1975 was the time of “Ford to City: Drop Dead”. The city was nearly bankrupt and crippled with strikes. Drugs were rampant. Crime was up a million percent. You needed a “no radio in car” sign and if that prevented a break-in they just went upstairs to break into your apartment. The city had several of the worst ghettos in the country and most of lower Manhattan was a crumbling ruin that looked like today’s Detroit.
And just like the blues and jazz and folk were spawned by the worst times, music responded to this chaos. It’s no coincidence that punk, hip hop, and disco all started in NYC at about this same time. Each was a poke in the eye of the PTB by a different oppressed outsider group. Each used noise and attitude in the music, though each slanted that a different way. And each was adopted and watered down by groups outside of NYC.
That killed punk, because metal fulfilled the needs of kids who wanted headbanging without having to think about what spawned it. Disco got mainstreamed from its gay roots and faded. Hip hop became rap and took over the world because it could find a large-enough base everywhere - blacks really were oppressed in every city in a way that white teenagers were not - and could survive even when watered-down.
I’m always amazed that people don’t see the similarities between English punk and American hip hop. They seem overwhelming to me. Punk was a national phenomenon. The Sex Pistols went to #1 on the charts without radio play. That can only mean a resonance with a larger chuck of British society than a sector of hip London teenagers. If you look you see the same problems in England that you did in NYC. Crippling strikes, crumbling economy, high crime. True, Thatcher didn’t get elected PM until 1979. That’s a fact taken out of context. The important point is that she became leader of the opposition in 1975. She was dubbed the “Iron Lady” in 1976. Her rhetoric defined the times better than Heath’s did even though it took until 1979 for his government to fall. That environment allowed punk to live long enough for it to evolve into better-made music that had a more permanent spot. In Britain. The evolution there is pretty straight line. In America you have to twist and dot the lines to get the links.
The conditions in NYC sparked three full genres of music in a year or two. The question I find interesting is why no genres of music are being created today. Is it that the music world is too large and fragmented for a genre to grow? Or is it that conditions really aren’t all that bad for the groups that create music compared to the 60s and 70s? Probably some of both. I’m betting that the next true genre comes from outside of American and Britain. We’re too wealthy and soft.
3 Chord 2 Minute epics lol
By my (admittedly broad) personal definition, I would say I am inclined to agree with you. They fit a little too neatly into the hip hop genre box but other than that they are fairly punk and do a good bit of genre bending.
I am years out of the scene by now, but the current band that I consider to be the most punk band making mainstream music right now is probably The Hold Steady, and they sound more like Springsteen than almost anything else (sort of Springsteen meets the Minutmen actually, now that I am thinking about it) But it’s the fuck you attitude and home grown sound that rings that punk rock bell for me. If you aren’t familiar with them listen to this:
or live
The first track there is a little more conventionally punk sounding, but the live track is a bit more representative of what the band is like.
Neither track sounds like this, which is not punk but gets the label. So, you know, labels are kinda dumb.