I guess at the end of the day it doesn’t matter where punk comes from in terms of nationality because it’s for everyone. But while I agree that punk in England was more of a commercial force earlier on, I don’t think it’s accurate to say it was more “successful” or “influential” there.
For one thing, plenty of bands from the New York scene went on to considerable commercial success to say the least - Talking Heads, Blondie, hell, even the Bush Tetras managed to chart in the 80s.
But punk existed in other parts of the country too! X in LA was getting album of the year from the Village Voice (or some other bullshit old-guard critical publication), the Dead Kennedys were “the most dangerous band in America,” and Black Flag was more or less making the indie rock movement possible (hyperbole alert!). There’s not much point in describing local scenes all over the country, but basically every place in the US punk touched it gave rise to a new movement, that throughout the 80s coalesced until eventually in 1991 it was dominating for a fleeting moment, and that wasn’t just on this side of the ocean. This isn’t to say the US was unique in this way either - Michael Azerrad describes punk rock as a tennis match between the US and the UK.
Punk never flared out in the US. I think its longevity has been pretty amazing, actually.
By the way, no one was asserting that VU were actually a punk band, although if they had existed ten years later they probably would have been called that. They were definitely precursors (“proto-punks” to be an asshole about it) in their deconstructionist spirit and (earlier on anyway) freeform and self-guided approach.
I don’t get it. “Punk” as name for that genre grew out of a magazine devoted to covering bands in New York. Why shouldn’t the name be applied to American bands?
You weren’t there, man. It was “hardcore” or “american hardcore”, which was a differentiator from English Punk. Joey Shithead of DOA is credited with the term and it was from the Hardcore '81 albumn.
Decline and Fall was American Hardcore, and specifically the LA scene circa 1981-ish. That was one of the hardcore centers along with DC, NY, SF, Texas and scattered elsewhere in the US and Canada.
Larry - those would be hardcore bands. Or at least that’s what we called it when it was going on.
Let’s throw in the Big Boys, Minor Threat, DOA, Dicks, Really Red, Scream, Seven Seconds, Bad Brains, Youth Brigade, Stretch Marks, Meat Puppets, Minutemen, TSOL, Husker Du and a whole slew of other bands.
I grew up listening to a lot of the old Canadian hardcore bands too:
Direct Action from Toronto S.C.U.M. from Montreal Dayglo Abortions from Victoria (?) Forgotten Rebels from Hamilton Problem Children also from Hamilton (?) S.N.F.U. from Edmonton
I still bust out some of these records from time to time. Especially Direct Action. A very talented band that never really got the recognition they deserved.
Yeah, I posted without reading the thread and missed you’d earlier post. You’re right, but to me harDCore was the essence of punk. I like the clash and the Ramones, a nd I wouldn’t even call myself a punk, but I do like the jackhammer DC/SoCal sound.
ETA: Sorry about typos, drunk and posting from phone.
Dude, Punk was in its second wave by '76. Why are you talking '81?
And the earliest references to punk are actually a bit earlier. 1966, with 96 Tears. And I’ll agree that 96 Tears isn’t all that relevant to the 70s version.
But if anyone’s trying to argue that a bunch of shirt-selling no-hopes with a kiddy-diddler manager behind 'em is actually real punk and the New York Dolls and the Ramones aren’t, they’re just wrong.
I’ve always wondered what is it, exactly, that differentiates punk from metal (yes I know there are bands which claim alleigience under both banners). They both rock hard and loud, but perhaps there the similarities end; metal typically has favored virtuosity, something anathema to punk, and rarely has concerned itself with social issues. I wonder if I can successfully make the following analogy work: metal is to punk as fascism is to communism? Ehh probably not.
Really? God I think they epitomize what punk means to me now*. They sound like nothing but themselves, they make music on their own terms and they have something to say. That’s punk right to the core.
I went to see Jello Biafra give a spoken word concert when I was about 17 (10 years ish ago, if you were wondering) and the crowd was littered with stereotypical punk looking kids. Jello comes out in jeans and a t-shirt looks at the crowd and says “You know, it was never supposed to be a uniform guys. We were trying to express our individuality, what you are doing is backward.”
That hits the nail on the head for me. Punk isn’t about a sound, or an aesthetic as much as it is about not being held down by what is accepted. The second what you are doing becomes a label it stops being punk.
*which interestingly has evolved a lot from what it meant to me when I still considered myself a punk.
But I like Joy Division and Public Image too, although that’st not what I’m supposed to do. Biscuit, Big Boys from Fun Fun Fun.
Most people have never heard of the Big Boys from Austin, but they were far and away one of the best hardcore bands around. Their favorite show of all time was in DC playing on a bill with Trouble Funk and Minor Threat. That’s hardcore.
I lived nearThe Island, one of Houston’s punk hangouts. Being an old fart, I liked touring oddities like Snakefinger (friend of The Residents) & was thrilled by The Blasters. There were local arty weirdos like Culturcide, or the new-wavish, all-girls-except-the drummer The MyDolls–who once opened for The Cramps.
But I really liked the straight-ahead attack of The Big Boys, who played there a bunch.
Not to disagree, but Malcolm was the New York Dolls last manager, so he did earn some amount of cred for that. Mind you, the whole Red Leather idea was horrible.
That’s true, Crew, and I’m certainly not saying the Pistols weren’t punk. I’m just saying that to say the Pistols were punk and the Dolls weren’t is… yeah. Not even wrong.
I’ve never actually heard Red Patent Leather. Is it any good as an album? It’s really no worse a concept than the Ramones wearing swastikas, god knows. Get outrage, get attention, make some noise.
So, did you like Really Red too? They were from Houston and played a lunch concert for free at UC Davis circa 1981 when I was a student there. That was pretty amusing. MyDolls sent me a handmade t-shirt once that was way cool and had tales of being “4 texan chicks in NY for the Paris Texas film debut” (warming up in the scene with John Lurie as harry dean stanton goes to the talk to a naked girl place). Millions of Dead Cops too. Texas had tons of great bands including the Dicks.
KDVS, the UC Davis radio station, sponsored a show with the Blasters in a teeny tiny coffee house that had a legal limit of maybe 200 people. There were probably more like 1,000 that showed up. Great show. The fire marshall didn’t shut it down but posted firemen in full suits at all the exits during the show.
