Well, my question was how people notice. Maybe we’re talking about different things?
Because in my experience, the buttons are behind the collar where you can’t see them, and the button holes are tiny and not-noticeable unless you’re right next to somebody, and looking specifically for them.
If there’s some other kind of button down collar I don’t know about, that might clear up my confusion. I’m referring to the bottom two examples here. Since I don’t wear a tie normally, however, I don’t button my top shirt button, so I can’t see a way to button the collar down that doesn’t look silly with an open necked shirt.
It is much more noticeable than you believe. Personally, I’m not offended if they’re not buttoned, but i think even I would *notice *it. And I don’t notice much.
It can sometimes be the case that women may not always be sensitive to subtle variations like this in menswear, particularly business attire. FWIW, I’ve always heard that button-down collars are slightly less formal. Not quite like wearing a clip-on tie or a short-sleeve dress shirt, but along the lines of wearing a blazer and dress pants rather than a suit.
They are beyond any doubt whatsoever less formal. It is totally 100% ok to wear these to court - however I would not - nor do I ever wear an OCBD (Oxford cloth button down - the technical name for the style) with a tie. I don’t think it would be an exaggeration to say at least 9 out of 10 fashion writers would agree that they are generally considered less formal - and the other one would be acting coy.
Just isn’t my style. I don’t think I would probably notice someone who did however - I just don’t pay that much attention to how guys look.
There is a hierarchy to mens fashion - much of which is agreed upon - and virtually none of which I knew about until I started paying attention.
Go on any mens fashion forum (ok there are only about 2-3 big ones) and mention that you are wearing wing tips to a job interview at a law firm - and they will laugh at you. It would be like coming here and asking why isn’t it ok to teach intelligent design in school. Personally I had always assumed wingtips were more fashionable - shows you what I know.
Similarly - no one would suggest wearing an OCBD with a suit and tie to some conservative business function.
Personally - I don’t think that 95% of attorneys would notice some of these supposed fashion faux paux.
If you check out Brooks Brothers site for example - they will show you OCBD paired with ties - it is ok to wear, but just is a more casual look. I doubt you will see many photos of Obama (I’m sure someone will be able to post instant examples to the contrary) wearing one with a suit - unless he is going to a factory or something.
I did a google search for “official photos congress” and I think the only one I saw that was an OCBD was Paul Ryan (who is considered fashionable I believe) - there were a couple I couldn’t tell. So it looks to me like if you are going to pose for an official photo for congress - it is totally ok to wear an OCBD, but most don’t.
I know the above probably makes me sound like a pretentious dick. I’m typing this wearing my cheap ass Hanes t shirt and target sleep pants (I’m on a bad schedule). I love OCBD - and that is what I usually wear when I go out - I wouldn’t wear a non OCBD with jeans (although that too is ok). To me it is too “formal”.
Button-down collars are absolutely less formal. This is fact and not up for debate.
I have a few plaid shirts with button-down collars that I don’t button down because I otherwise like the shirts, yet button-down is not my style. I still get plenty of play so don’t consider it much of an issue.
Honestly, I didn’t even consider that it might be a thing until this thread. If it has a button-down collar it’s a casual shirt. Unbuttoning the collar tips the scale from Casual to Too Casual? I’m not on board.
I recently bought a shirt with a button down collar, but with the botton hole only on the underside of the collar. The top collar surface is smooth like a non-button down collar. Perhaps the current King/Queen of Fashion can make a ruling on whether I must button the collars on this shirt.
This shirt’s collars are harder to button than a regular button down collar. So cheer up, it could be worse.
Not having a collar at all is what tips a shirt from Casual to Too Casual.
The ruling is simple. If your collars stay flat while unbuttoned, then you don’t need to button them. If they start to curl up, then the shirt is neither Casual nor Dress. It is Unbelievably Dumb Looking and you need to correct it immediately.
Is that how people learn these things, from fashion forums? You don’t sound like a pretentious dick, I’m just wondering where I would normally learn such things, if not from my parents (my Dad always wore OCBD), and before the internet?
Take heart; you aren’t the most fashion-clueless person on the planet. Until reading this thread, I always assumed collar buttons were one of those weird vestigial fashion things, like those useless sleeve buttons on some suits or women’s pockets, and that no one in their right mind would ever try using them.
Well that’s how I found out. I think I took a hint after a date told me I dressed like her grandfather. I didn’t feel like this, but wanted to improve my chances so I went online and found a couple forums.
When in Manhattan one time I met a custom shirt maker to have some shirts made that I read about on the forums and he give me a few more tips including “your jeans look like shit - they don’t fit you right - go to these two stores [writes down the addresses].” I learned a bit like simple stuff of matching belt color to shoes and different types of shoes and fabrics for weather and levels of casualness. I am still a novice, but I had zero knowledge before.
After doing this my image improved - my last relatively serious girlfriend - told me on like our third date that I was “the best dressed guy she had ever met - and that I obviously knew what I was doing”. I thought this was a slight exaggeration - but it felt great.
After coming back to my hotel room the next day from meeting the shirt maker I put on my newly purchase pair of jeans - and I swear I am not making this up…
After I gave a talk at a convention two of the guys I had met the previous day (German guys if it matters) - came up and wanted to know where I got my jeans - they literally had theirs fingers inside my waistline (I swear this is true) - as we were all trying to figure out the model number of the Jeans (they had already correctly guessed the brand). Since then I have had at least two dozen people ask where I got my jeans (which had never happened before in my life that I can recall). And I had probably six men and women ask where I had gotten a certain jacket.
Odd thing is that more people noticed and commented on the $49 pair of jeans than on the $150+ shirts I had made.
So everything I learned about fashion/style - I learned on the internet - and trial and error.
Fashion forums are a fantastic resource, and I’m much better dressed thanks to what I’ve learned at places like www.aksandyaboutclothes.com and www.styleforum.net. However, use the for information like what clothes are appropriate for various things, fit, materials, construction, design and other fundamentals. Once you start talking about what brands and designers to buy, shit gets crazy, fast. Armed with even a bit of knowledge, you can look good shopping most anywhere at any price range, but you can’t convince fashionistas of that.
