What is the added value of Ivy league schools?

[MandaJo]

@Lakai

The professors at State schools might teach the material the same way, but they can’t open doors like Ivy League professors can.

If you’re going into a profession that relies on networking, the Ivy League schools are they place you want to be. You can learn more about the culture of networking from just being around Ivy League students and professors than you can from doing anything else. That alone is worth the price of admission because you can’t get that anywhere else.

I am going to disagree a bit: in general, I think you are correct, but the good honors programs at top states schools come close to replicating the networking opportunities. The admissions are nearly as competitive, and unlike the general population, the kids have very close contact with professors who are nationally known.

@Dewey_Finn

Note that the states have been reducing the amount of subsidy they’re providing to their public universities. And while the list price of the elite private universities like Harvard may be higher than the list price of the public universities, the elite schools are way more generous in terms of financial aid. So the net cost is often lower.

It’s even more complicated than that, though, because any kid that can get into the Ivy League is probably going to be offered academic scholarships as well as financial aid, which simply don’t exist in the IL schools. So a kid that comes from a household that makes 175K won’t get offered anything from an IL school, but a top state honors program would very likely waive out of state tuition. On the other hand, a kid with a household income of under $30,000 would be offered a totally free ride to the ILs, but most state schools would expect them to contribute $3-5K a semester, IME.

Then there’s the fact that once you are admitted you can actually negotiate–once the admit you, they really, really want you–and sometimes get schools to match offers.

About all you can do is apply to a wide variety of schools and see what you get. It’s really impossible to predict which will work out as the better deal.

[Spavined_Gelding]

Over a career, so far, of more than 40 years I have been privileged to work with and deal with graduates of elite universities (as well as the trade school on the Hudson) and found that some of them were just flat brilliant. Some, however, were dullards and bores and perhaps not as honest as one might hope. I can say the same thing about graduates of the great mid-western universities.

It’s nice to put Harvard or Yale or Stanford on the resume and that might get you preference on the first job but down the road it’s results and track record that count even for the product of a less than fashionable school.

In the 1960s my university’s tuition for a full load undergraduate was $95.00 per semester; graduate and professional schools were $125.00. That made the great mid-western universities competitive with and as attractive as the elites for people of modest means.

[Swords_to_Plowshares]

Going to an Ivy or other elite school for undergrad or graduate school would probably give different answers.

For undergrad, it gives:

1. name recognition, obviously

2. excellent networking opportunities with alumni who are at the top of their fields

3. access to famous professors and researchers (Jon Kleinberg was my networks professor! James Maas was my psych professor!)

4. access to excellent tools for starting a career

5. top firms usually only recruit from a select few schools, and they’re more likely to choose Ivies over other schools

6. (sometimes) a better or more rigorous curriculum (but not always)

[raspberry_hunter]

My high school boyfriend A. and I were about the same in high school intellectually and motivationally – we were both very bright, very driven students who between us racked up a bunch of awards on the local, state, and occasionally national level. I was able to go to a rather prestigious Ivy. A. was admitted to the same Ivy, but got a full ride to a small liberal arts school that his parents forced him to take. We both did very well in college.

Graduate school: I was accepted to all the top grad schools I applied to, including my top choice and my undergrad institution. He was not accepted at either.

Postgrad: A. got a very good postdoc at my graduate school, and has since gone on to another good postdoc. I decided I didn’t want academia, but I was offered a couple of very good postdocs in my field, at which point I probably would have crashed and burned because I am not cut out for academia. So we equalized at the postgrad level.

My husband went to a state school honors program. He is smarter and more motivated technically than I, but motivated less in non-technical ways. He ended up at the same grad school as I, and also got out of academia at that time but has never lacked for work.

I have found that when my husband and I apply for jobs, people get wowed by my resume with the prestigious Ivy, but my husband, being extremely technical, wows them in the interview – and we seem to be pretty similar in terms of what jobs we’ve been offered, etc.

It’s also true that I made some incredible, awesome friends in college that my husband envies me a bit.

So my answer is that it depends a LOT. I think A. would have benefited a lot in the earlier stages of his career from going to college at my institution, but the older we get, the less the benefit seems to be. For someone like me, especially since I don’t interview well, it’s been extremely useful having it on my resume. For someone like my husband, the state honors program seems to have been equivalent from a career point of view.

[ultrafilter]

@Swords_to_Plowshares

Going to an Ivy or other elite school for undergrad or graduate school would probably give different answers.

For professional programs, the situation is about the same as undergrad, except that Ivyness isn’t quite a determining factor for whether a given university is elite. For research-oriented graduate programs, the situation is so different that you can’t even really make meaningful comparisons.

[athelas]

@Dignan

I remember it being suggested that while there are students at state schools just as talented as those at Ivies, the admission process and course work at an Ivy works as kind of a vetting process for top tier businesses or law firms. The best companies will recruit at an Ivy League, because they know that the candidates are likely to have already gone through a rigorous application process and a high level of study.

Makes sense to me. Why spend lots of HR money vetting folks if you can outsource that to selective colleges’ admissions committees?

[Voyager]

@athelas

Makes sense to me. Why spend lots of HR money vetting folks if you can outsource that to selective colleges’ admissions committees?

Well, the person also got through the college. But, even if there are good people at other schools, I think the assumption that the density is higher at a top school is fairly reasonable. And this is a source of resumes - people from these schools don’t get jobs automatically, after all.

[Swords_to_Plowshares]

@ultrafilter

For professional programs, the situation is about the same as undergrad, except that Ivyness isn’t quite a determining factor for whether a given university is elite. For research-oriented graduate programs, the situation is so different that you can’t even really make meaningful comparisons.

That’s what I assumed. My roommate is a bio major and he’s been interviewing at various grad schools. When he said that he was interviewing at University of Washington, I was surprised. Why a public school on the other side of the country? But apparently they have a top level bio program, better than most well-known private universities. So that’s what tipped me off to the fact that grad schools are probably different.

[Bijou_Drains]

If the person looking at your resume went to the Ivy league they probably will give you more of a shot than somebody who went to a state university. (in general and that’s just my 2 cents)

[sunstone]

My two sons went to Stanford, which is a top tier institution by everyone’s measure. The tuition was very high, but with very generous financial aid plus some from me, and the required work study required by Stanford, our family was able to send both to the University.

The financial officer that I talked to made it very clear to me that we were not to refinance our house, or pay out of family savings, or other similar “draconian” measures.

The end result was that the cost was actually less than going to a University of California university, as our income did not qualify us for the various public grants and so forth. So my sons went to a top tier school, and have definitely benefited from the name recognition and also the actual quality of their education.

So…absolutely worth it to everyone in our family.

[Hakuna_Matata]

I also think it depends on the profession. In mine it has little value, as when you graduate you aren’t judged on where you went to school, but you are judged by your design portfolio. Having a degree from Havard or Yale but with a poor design portfolio isn’t going to get you too far as an Architect. Having worked with and interviewed people with Ivy degrees, I can’t say I saw any appreciable difference in their design backgrounds from other applicants.

However as stated above it could lead to future specific contacts later in your career which does have value. But if you are setting up shop to design homes in small town america then I doubt those contacts will make any difference. If you worked for a large firm which did international work, perhaps (and that is a big perhaps) it might make a difference.

But I could see for certain profession it likely is very critical (I am thinking of law as one), or at least critical depending upon what kind of law you wanted to practice.

Personally I haven’t seen the value of going that far in debt to become an Architect. If it didn’t cost more, then sure go for it.

[Wallenstein]

My first job interview after uni went along the lines of “Ah, I see you went to Cambridge. Our college used to thrash your chaps at rowing”. And from then on it was pretty much as case of agreeing a start date.

In my current role the people who originally interviewed me have left, so when I had to reapply for my role (due to redundancy activity) my existing managers had never seen my CV before. First comment was “blimey, I never knew you went to Cambridge… what on earth are you doing working in this place?”

Rightly or wrongly the top-tier universities carry influence in their name, almost regardless of the course you took.

[PunditLisa]

My daughter is attending a college that is $40k with room & board. Had she not received a generous scholarship, she would not have enrolled. Absent extenuating circumstances, such as one particular college enjoying a stellar reputation in her chosen field (e.g. Harvard Law or MIT Engineering) that will give her a head’s up over other applicants, I cannot see how one can justify the difference in price, especially if that means taking on cumbersome loans. Of course, as others have said, most of the pricier schools have endowments which means that few students actually pay the listed price.

IMO, the average student would do far better to choose a college that has a proven network for placing students in good jobs in their chosen field, such as partnerships and co-op programs. There’s nothing more wasteful than getting a degree and then not using it.

[Spice_Weasel]

This is a a hard question for anyone to answer based on experience because we have nothing to objectively compare it to. All I can do is compare my undergrad experience studying Spanish at a public state school (University of Michigan) to my experience studying social work at an Ivy grad school (Penn.)

In general, University of Michigan was a more stimulating and diverse environment than Penn could ever hope to be. It had a greater international presence and tended to have a very political and social-justice oriented focus. I mean that on a campus-wide scale, across all departments and disciplines. There were a lot of really brilliant, academically committed people, but there were also some kids that clearly had no interest in scholarship and just were doing what their parents expected of them. Local name recognition was huge, but not only because of prestige - there are a lot of Wolverine fans out there.

Penn is… different. It’s significantly smaller, and while the activities in my department obviously focus on social justice, the values of the institution itself seem harder to define. The focus is less international and more domestic. The quality of academic instruction is roughly the same as I received at University of Michigan.

That said, all the students are really brilliant and dedicated. I can’t think of a single stupid person in my graduating class. Because it’s a professional program, a lot of them possess intimidating professional skills and experiences. I consider them role models and learn from them every day. I really can’t underscore enough how critical I feel my colleagues have been to my own professional development.

Then there is the networking. I think theoretically this could have happened at University of Michigan, but Penn’s urban presence makes a huge difference in my field for connecting with people. And the nature of the work I do pretty much requires contact and interaction with individuals and organizations across the field - not just to find a job but to do my job. And what seems particularly pertinent to me, as I am on the verge of graduation, is that ten years from now, the people managing these organizations will be my colleagues. When I need to make a phone call for a funding pitch or to form a coalition, the people on the other end of the line will be my former classmates. I think the potential implications of that are huge.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@PunditLisa

IMO, the average student would do far better to choose a college that has a proven network for placing students in good jobs in their chosen field, such as partnerships and co-op programs. There’s nothing more wasteful than getting a degree and then not using it.

Just fall off the turnip truck? Nobody finishes college with the same major they started with. Well, not nobody, but not many.

[msmith537]

A lot of it depends on your chosen field. If you are looking to get into a top law firm, management consulting firm, investment bank, hedge fund or a highly competetive corporate management training program, you are better off going to an Ivy League or other top school. The added value is that these highly competetive jobs pay upwards of six figures.

The downside is that it sort of becomes a pie eating contest where the reward is more pie. Making $200,000 a year isn’t all that great if you have to work 100+ hours a week. Then again, a lot of people do it for a few years, save up some money and get into something else.

Then again I work with a lot of Ivy League types and I didn’t go to Harvard or anything. My college was still freakin expensive (and thus, “better”).