You’re kinda coming off like a “Treybot” in this thread, ya know?
I’m glad this thread appeared, because I’m beyond perplexed with the passion that Zimmerman defend his actions. It’s the perfect crime (yes, I said crime, an unarmed kid was shot to death) because there are no eyewitnesses, and the other person is dead. All of the data we have from that evening is filtered through Zimmerman. Wow, he wouldn’t have a reason to emphasize the aspects that suit him, would he? :rolleyes:
Anybody remember the name James Byrd? Or James Craig Anderson? During Trayvon Martin’s brief lifetime, he was probably aware that Black men had been lynched. I’m intelligent, well educated, in decent shape… but if someone in a truck was obviously following me (which is in fact one of the few things that Zimmerman and Martin agree on), I might think that the person driving intends to hurt me.
There’s no logical reason for anyone to approach a stranger in the dead of night unless he wants trouble.
I know exactly what this feels like. A few years ago, I was in Albuquerque, NM. I was at a conference, decided to hit up the Frontier Cafe, and as I didn’t know the bus route back to my hotel, I started to walk back on a main street (lit, but not at all busy). As I walked, I could tell there was someone behind me, probably about 15 feet. I start walking a little faster, and the person seems to be keeping pace. After about three minutes I start wondering WTF is going on? Why is there someone so close behind me? I know if I was walking on a street, I’d probably cross, or keep some distance.
I start thinking what I will do if the footsteps get closer. Can I outrun someone who’s been pacing behind me? Are they scoping me out to see if I have a wallet they can pick? Or do I swing first? Because yes, I do fear being attacked because of my race. I’m not a small guy and I think most opportunist petty criminals would look for an easier mark. But I also know that there’s a long history of people stringing Black men like me up… and if you think that’s hyperbole, read through the link about how James Byrd, Jr. died. If that’s a possibility you’d better believe I’m going to absolutely destroy anyone who comes up to confront me in those circumstances.
After about five minutes I decide to cross the street. I know a criminal looks for “tells” - people who walk with their head down, unsure. My head is held up. I’m walking briskly but not panicking. I have a fleece jacket with a hood on - yep, the hoodie is up, because it’s cold… and maybe that makes me look a little more intimidating. I just want to be left alone.
Amazingly, the person tailing me crosses… and I am seconds away from wheeling around, and I notice they stop and turn into a motel. It’s a woman, smaller than me, possibly Latina. I breathe a sigh of relief and wonder if she realized how scared I was, when she was quite possibly walking where she needed to go without regard for me one way or another. That blew my mind, that someone would be so oblivious to the danger of walking so close to someone in the dark in a relatively desolate city block late at night. But even then, I didn’t know for sure if she was just walking innocently. Maybe she did mean me harm, or she had an accomplice nearby. You never know.
It took the rest of the walk for my adrenaline to subside.
I guess I’m saying, maybe Trayvon Martin felt the same fear I felt that night - and I’m a fortysomething year old man with a completely coincidental following. He, on the other hand, knew that he was being tailed. I wonder if he thought about being dragged behind a truck that night? I suspect he might have, and that is why, even if Zimmerman is being truthful in stating that Martin attacked him - I know I might have well done the same.
(deliberately shortened for easy reading)
Did you forget Jeantel’s testimony? She “filtered” that TM was by his daddy fiance house at one point. That’s some 300 feet from the “T” where GZ was located. If I remember correctly, the final confrontation took place by the “T” and not by Rachel Green’s residence. Unless you’re claiming that Jeantel is just another lying liar.
Oh, and to keep this thread-related, Twin Oaks had a serious, proven, history of burglary and other crimes.
Dear Doorhinge, Just wondering is there some reason you always use the phrase ‘daddy fiance’?
So, question – if the night had been a bit darker, in your story, and you had decided to attack first, before she turned into her motel, and you punched out the shorter Latina woman who was simply walking to her motel…how should the law have treated you? What’s your idea for how society should react to that circumstance?
Bricker,
apples and oranges type comparison
That would make Martin the aggressor then. Zimmerman kept his distance, Martin went out of his way to encounter him.
Did you see that on a TV show?
I see where you’re going with this, but it’s different. Someone walking behind you, but not ostensibly stalking you is not the same situation. It would be analogous if she had been noticeably following me in a vehicle, and I had changed my path while she continued to follow me, and then she got out and came toward me. However, the fear one feels when someone is approaching at night is the point I’m getting at.
I doubt very seriously I would have punched the woman as soon as I turned and saw her, but I might well have told her to back the fuck off. Of course, I’m over twice the age with over twice the experience that Martin had.
I understand.
But I still want an answer to the question – suppose this happened to you when you were Martin’s age. Suppose it was so dark you didn’t see it was even a woman until the punch landed. I imagine your first reaction would have been, “Oh, shit, I’m sorry, I thought you were…”
But what should the legal system do with you, if anything, after that?
I also don’t think someone not meaning me any harm would have immediately backed off if I turned around. If they didn’t that would suggest that they did indeed mean me harm.
But let’s play this scenario out as you suggest. I would hope the legal system would take into account all of these mitigating factors - the context in which Black men have been attacked and killed in heinous ways (Byrd was lynched in 1998, and Anderson was lynched in 2011). I don’t know how well known these cases are among the general public, but I certainly knew about James Byrd’s lynching when it happened in 1998, when I was only 10 years older than Martin. I would suggest that these events have a greater resonance for Black people, and Black males in particular. Certainly, if I had hit this woman, I would be apologetic, but there should be some understanding of the role of fear here (and this is a very mild variant of what actually happened in the Zimmerman case).
There was a popular book out many years ago called The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker, an FBI profiler and security expert. In the book he argues that we’ve been socialized to not use our tuition out of fear of looking “stupid” or “overreacting.” de Becker uses a scenario when a woman is approached by a stranger offering to help with bags at night. He identifies ten or so behaviors that are warnings - many of which we might dismiss as being “paranoid.” For instance, he argues that no reasonable man would approach a woman alone at night - he’d reason that he’d be more likely to scare this woman than help her.
So - back to the actual case. Martin knew he was being followed - first intuitive clue. He changed his path and the truck was still following him - second intuitive clue. The truck had no markings or lights to suggest it was a law enforcement vehicle - third intuitive clue. I think it’s not unreasonable given the history of civil rights violations toward Black men to think that Martin was extremely fearful when Zimmerman left his vehicle and neared him.
Nonsense. Zimmerman was in a vehicle, ostensibly (and erroneously) noticed a “suspicious” individual, continued to follow him (even after reporting it to a 911 dispatcher), and then exited the vehicle. How is that not showing aggression to someone who has done nothing wrong?
If I follow you home in my car, after you changing your route and noticing me doing so, and then exit the car, would you assume I’m there to welcome you to the neighborhood? I suspect you would see it on the aggressive side of things. The degree of aggression is arguable, but I doubt you would think I’m the Publisher’s Clearinghouse trying to surprise you with a million dollar check.
If you’re not part of a class that is routinely profiled and followed - resulting in the best case, mild harassment and annoyance, and in the worst, torture, lynching, and death, you might not get this. There’s an assumption in your statement that it was okay to profile and follow Martin. Note that Zimmerman had not seen Martin do anything besides walk.
If I went to an affluent suburb and followed White men who were simply walking to their homes, and decided to exit my car to confront them, I would not assume that society, the law enforcement community, or White men as a group would think my behavior was appropriate.
:dubious:
Hippy Hollow,…yes, agreed, it is such an obviously different situation, it doesnt even qualify as an honest comparison
If you wanted an answer to a question, you should start with an honest question. Even a 7 year old with some common sense would draw an obvious distinction between the two.
In reading that response, I can’t really tell what you’re suggesting the legal system do as a result of your punch, though, which is the question I asked. What, specifically, should the legal system do in response to your mistaken punch?
I have an honest question. You said:
I gave you links to show other people speaking out and supporting Zimmerman, including Osterman, who not only spoke on show like the “Dr. Phil” show, but testified at trial. I showed you a Youtube link to the actual show, didn’t I?
So why did you try to claim that the only person you’d seen speaking in support of Zimmerman was Taafe?
That’s an honest question. Can you provide an honest answer?
So the murder of a black man fifteen years ago and a thousand miles away is enough to make Martin reasonably afraid of Zimmerman but the crime spree happening at that time and in that place by people matching Martin’s description is not relevant?
Martin does not act like someone who is afraid. He is near his father’s residence but does not go there. He has a phone but does not call the police or his father. He has just left a well lit public place but does not go back there. He was in much better shape than the obese Zimmerman but does not try to run.
Making analogies to simplify key issues can be very useful if the analogous connection is apt.
In this thread both sides have made a variety of absurd analogies, of no value or relevance. The talking at cross-purpose has made the thread so useless, I recommend that Mods change the threat title to
Nominations for absurdest analogies.
I’d start with some nominations of my own, but am not sure whether the prize should be awarded for blatancy or subtlety.
(It might be good to award a special prize for best analogy that is actually valid or useful, but I’m not sure there are any candidates.)
Thanks for asking. The whole phrase is “daddy fiance house”. Jeantel actually used that phrase during her testimony. What phrase would you prefer I use?