What is the difference between a Liberal and a Conservative?

[2sense]

@BrotherCadfael

"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort. "

– Robert Heinlein

I missed this. Heinlein gets it almost right in dividing us between the idealists and the suspicious but misses the fact that conservatives like him also want to control people. After all, no one, even the most hardcore libertarian, is in favor of repealing the laws against murder.

[KidCharlemagne]

@2sense

Yes, for my part.

Have you? I mean, have you missed out on what constitutes a political philosophy? What you offer are stereotypes, not principles. But I don’t know why I’m picking on you when so many others before you have been just as bad or worse. So, do you or any of the other ranters care to try to back up your claims? This isn’t the IMHO forum, after all.

Liberals also refuse to believe that stereotypes have any basis in truth.

I’ll tell you what. Make up some poll questions based on the content of my post. If I agree they are fair, I will pay for the polling service if I’m more right than wrong and vice versa.

Conservatives, of which I’m not one, also put their money where their mouth is. Yea, I know, How can I get any money in there with my foot already in it.

[tnetennba]

This isn’t very instructive as to political ideology, although it is very revealing as to why this country is so divided.

Let us begin anew by assuming that the difference between (a) and (b) is not that (a) has some kind of mental deficit, character deficit, or both, while (b) has the mental and character strengths (a) lacks. Let us also presume that the wise answer is not that both (a) and (b) are lacking in some fundamental way, and that the disengaged © is a helpless victim in the wake of civic involvement by the forces of (a) and (b). Let (a) speak for (a) and (b) speak for (b).

[BrotherCadfael]

@2sense

I missed this. Heinlein gets it almost right in dividing us between the idealists and the suspicious but misses the fact that conservatives like him also want to control people. After all, no one, even the most hardcore libertarian, is in favor of repealing the laws against murder.

I think that he is saying that both liberals and conservatives have their share of people who want to control others – in the bedroom, in the boardroom – and their share of people who want to live and let live.

From my observation, just how strong the controlling faction in either wing is varies from year to year. At the moment, the conservatives feel pretty strongly about gay marriage, but have pretty much given up on who does what to whom in private. The liberals have pretty much given up on much of the old redistributionist, class-warfare stuff, but feel pretty strongly about controlling speech (hate crimes, campaign finance).

Note that I say that both sides have “pretty much given up on” – this doesn’t mean they don’t TALK about those issues, but they have pretty much given up on actually implementing these issues into law.

[blowero]

@2sense

Don’t patronize me.

Here’s a free tip - If you don’t want people to act patronizing towards you, you should refrain from acting patronizing towards them first.

If that’s what you wanted to say then you should have said so in the first place.

I did. You’re just being obtuse.

Instead you pointed out that liberals don’t seem to trust people absolutely in response to a quote of mine that expressed the very same sentiment.

Bullshit. The sentiment you expressed was that liberals trust people more than conservatives do. You offered the caveat that liberals don’t always trust people, but it certainly wasn’t the main thrust of your point. You can’t even seem to remember what you wrote. :rolleyes:

If you had made your assertion coherently the first time or politely this time I would have given you an answer.

I was quite coherent; the only thing lacking was your comprehension. I really don’t care if you give an answer or not. I was trying to participate in a reasonable discussion; if you don’t want to do so, good riddance to you.

Since you didn’t I have no interest in discussing it with you.

Your choice.

[PatriotX]

**Applying some of the same brain-scan technology used to understand Alzheimer’s and autism, scientists are trying to learn what makes a Republican’s mind different from a Democrat’s.**

[2sense]

@KidCharlemagne

Liberals also refuse to believe that stereotypes have any basis in truth.

I’m not certain you understand what a stereotype is. Saying that African-Americans tend not to tip well isn’t a stereotype, it’s a generalization ( or in my case, an observation. ) Saying that all black people don’t tip well is a stereotype. See the difference? The former is true but that doesn’t mean the later has any basis in truth. It’s just plain false. Generalizations about people can be accurate or not. Stereotypes are always innaccurate.

*I’ll tell you what. Make up some poll questions based on the content of my post. If I agree they are fair, I will pay for the polling service if I’m more right than wrong and vice versa. *

No thanks. It’s not my job to provide evidence for your claims. It’s your job to take responsibility for your words by backing them up or withdrawing them. Can you?

@BrotherCadfael

I think that he is saying that both liberals and conservatives have their share of people who want to control others – in the bedroom, in the boardroom – and their share of people who want to live and let live.

Oh. That makes sense. I didn’t look at it that way. Perhaps you are right about his meaning. In any case, he is wrong. As I said, everyone wants to control the behavior of others. The only differences are in the details.

@blowero

Here’s a free tip - If you don’t want people to act patronizing towards you, you should refrain from acting patronizing towards them first.

I didn’t condescend to you. I was honestly confused about what you meant. And I believe I had reason to. I see now that I was wrong to believe you were making the assertion that “liberals don’t seem to trust people absolutely” when you were actually speaking hypothetically. Still, you made no comparison between liberal and conservative thought in your first post so it is unsurprising that I didn’t understand that was supposed to be your point. If you had explained yourself without being rude then I would have been happy to explain myself.

[blowero]

@SimonX

**Applying some of the same brain-scan technology used to understand Alzheimer’s and autism, scientists are trying to learn what makes a Republican’s mind different from a Democrat’s.**

And when voters were shown a Bush ad that included images of the Sept. 11 attacks, the amygdala region of the brain — which lights up for most of us when we see snakes — illuminated more for Democrats than Republicans. The researchers’ conclusion: At a subconscious level, Republicans were apparently not as bothered by what Democrats found alarming.

Hmmm…when Bush is on t.v., I would expect people to act like they saw a snake.

[Starving_Artist]

@2sense

Generalizations about people can be accurate or not. Stereotypes are always innaccurate.

This is most certainly true, but you’re the first person here that I’ve ever seen make the distinction. Generalizations on this board are virtually always met with accusations of stereotyping.

[blowero]

@2sense

I didn’t condescend to you.

Oh, knock it off - you most certainly did. Perhaps you are so used to being snide that you don’t even realize when you are doing it.

I was honestly confused about what you meant.

O.K., then in the future, you want to say something along the lines of, “I’m not quite sure what you meant…”, rather than “Did you miss when I said such and such?”

And I believe I had reason to. I see now that I was wrong to believe you were making the assertion that “liberals don’t seem to trust people absolutely” when you were actually speaking hypothetically.

I’m not following you. I wasn’t speaking hypothetically, I was disagreeing with your assertion that liberals “trust people” more than conservatives do. There is nothing hypothetical about it.

Still, you made no comparison between liberal and conservative thought in your first post so it is unsurprising that I didn’t understand that was supposed to be your point.

Really? You honestly didn’t grasp the inference? So you thought I agreed with you, even though I explicitly stated that I disagreed with you?

I’m flabbergasted here. I can’t comprehend how you would think that. Did you perhaps misread my sentence: “liberals don’t trust people to always do the right thing” as “liberals don’t always trust people to do the right thing”? I mean, clearly, I was making the characterization that the liberal philosophy is not to trust people. You seem to have thought I meant it the other way around, and that I intended to say that not trusting people was the exception rather than the rule. I just don’t know how you could reach that conclusion from what I said. Honestly, do I have to spell out everything for you in excruciating detail?

If you had explained yourself without being rude then I would have been happy to explain myself.

You were rude first.

[PatriotX]

[group chanting]
Pit thread!
Pit thread!
Pit thread!
Pit thread!
Pit thread!
Pit thread!
[/group chanting]

[2sense]

@blowero

O.K., then in the future, you want to say something along the lines of, “I’m not quite sure what you meant…”, rather than “Did you miss when I said such and such?”

You misunderstand. When I wrote that sentence I thought I understood what you were saying. I thought you were ignoring the very quote you were responding to. I missed the word “if”.

In any case, the sentence “Did you miss such and such…” is not necessarily snide. Sure it can be read that way but that’s not how I meant it. Given that in this sort of communication we have to do without so many of the subtle cues we are used to in face to face communication I suggest in the future you don’t leap to conclusions.

I’m not following you. I wasn’t speaking hypothetically, I was disagreeing with your assertion that liberals “trust people” more than conservatives do. There is nothing hypothetical about it.

This also refers to the word “if”. I thought you were saying that I was making the sweeping generalization that liberals don’t trust people to always do the right thing. Thus my short response.

And again, you didn’t make any comparison between liberal and conservative thought in your first post. Since you didn’t say what you meant it is silly to blame me for not comprehending. Look, I did misunderstand what you did say. But I was never rude before you began patronizing me. I suggest you dial it back a few notches. Or take it to the Pit where you will have to do without the “pleasure” of my company.

[blowero]

@2sense

You misunderstand. When I wrote that sentence I thought I understood what you were saying. I thought you were ignoring the very quote you were responding to. I missed the word “if”.

In any case, the sentence “Did you miss such and such…” is not necessarily snide. Sure it can be read that way but that’s not how I meant it. Given that in this sort of communication we have to do without so many of the subtle cues we are used to in face to face communication I suggest in the future you don’t leap to conclusions.
This also refers to the word “if”. I thought you were saying that I was making the sweeping generalization that liberals don’t trust people to always do the right thing. Thus my short response.

I have no idea what you’re talking about now.

Look, I did misunderstand what you did say.

Then hopefully next time you won’t be so quick with the snide quip when you don’t even know what you’re talking about.

But I was never rude before you began patronizing me. I suggest you dial it back a few notches. Or take it to the Pit where you will have to do without the “pleasure” of my company.

Whatever.:rolleyes: You seem to be the one having a problem. Take it to the pit yourself. I’ve got better things to do.

[KidCharlemagne]

@2sense

I’m not certain you understand what a stereotype is. Saying that African-Americans tend not to tip well isn’t a stereotype, it’s a generalization ( or in my case, an observation. ) Saying that all black people don’t tip well is a stereotype. See the difference? The former is true but that doesn’t mean the later has any basis in truth. It’s just plain false. Generalizations about people can be accurate or not. Stereotypes are always innaccurate.

Thanks, I know the difference. BTW, weren’t you the one complaining about patronizing? Anyway, I said basis in truth. If the generalization is true then the stereotype has a basis in truth. Reread my post and put “tend to” right after every use of the word" liberal." I figured it was implied. I should have remembered how liberals TEND to find straw men.

[Roadfood]

@BrainGlutton

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum:
Whether the state should prioritize liberty (left) or security (right).

Right, which explains why the left favors gun control, and right says “You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers”. :dubious:

[2sense]

@blowero

Whatever

I feel the same way. Obviously this isn’t going anywhere so dropping it seems best.

@KidCharlemagne

Thanks, I know the difference.

Good to know.

• BTW, weren’t you the one complaining about patronizing?*

Yes. And I am also the person who is developing an attitude about posters who don’t take my words at face value. I wasn’t condescending to you either. From your post it honestly seemed possible to me that you were misunderstanding the term. Since you say you weren’t I will believe you because I believe the decent thing to do is extend the benefit of the doubt to your fellow posters. I wish more posters shared this attitude.

*Anyway, I said basis in truth. If the generalization is true then the stereotype has a basis in truth. *

As I have said, I disagree that the existence of an accurate generalization lends any “basis for truth” to any stereotype. You disagree. Fine, lets leave it at that.

Reread my post and put “tend to” right after every use of the word" liberal." I figured it was implied.

If so I didn’t recognize it as such. It seems more likely to me that you were being ironic. After all, you indulged in stereotypes of liberals whilst criticizing liberals for not recognizing the basic truth of stereotypes. But I, in good faith, took you at your word. It would be nice to be extended the same courtesy.

I should have remembered how liberals TEND to find straw men.

Cite? And how about providing some evidence for the earlier claims I have disputed? Will you take responsibility for your words?

[KidCharlemagne]

@2sense

Cite? And how about providing some evidence for the earlier claims I have disputed? Will you take responsibility for your words?

You seem like a fair-minded person. I mean that. I point it out because its nice to post with/to/at someone who can throw in a barb and still come back to reason. Now regarding my definition of liberal: It is mydefinition of liberal and it is somewhat tautological and completely connotational. I tend to think of both “liberal” and “conservative” as overly simplistic so I use them in that capacity and typically perjoratively (The former prefaced by “stupid,” the latter by “fuckin’”) My post is as much a statement about the stupidity of the words as it is about the beliefs that they only vaguely represent. Plus, I find making blanket statements oddly cathartic.

Having said that, I still believe that a survey of self-described liberals and conservatives would find many of my speculations to be true. I would expect an average psychographic profile to show more elements of victimhood for liberals than for conservatives. Googling “liberals bullied high school” revealed nothing so I offered to bet on a poll. The offer still stands. I’m not dealing in specifics here, just odds.