What is the mechanism of gravity?

I’ve often tried to visualize gravity as mass-distorted spacetime. It was of some interest to learn of an experiment which measured the frame-dragging effect on surrounding spacetime due to the mass of the rotating earth.

I wrote out an OP which I never posted in which I followed the bending of differently-dimensioned objects to demonstrate that (ala Lisa Randall) gravity operates in at least an additional dimension. (A 1-dimensional object, ie - a straight line - can only bend in a 2-dimensional space; a 2-dimensional object, ie - a sheet of paper - can only bend or fold or twist in a 3-dimensional space; so if 3-dimensional spacetime bends or folds or twists, it seems not extremely silly to suppose that it does so in an additional dimension.)

I’ve tried to visualize it by considering the case of how 3-dimensional objects might conceivably appear to hypothetical 2-dimensional beings. (Thank you, Edwin Abbott) I was hopeful that this could point out some direction (ha!) to look for in the case of 3-dimensional beings hoping to detect 4-dimensional something or others. As Stranger On A Train notes however, analogies rather lack both in predictive power as well as new possibility stimuli.

BTW - Lisa Randall’s (and others’) idea is that perhaps gravity is so many orders of magnitudes weaker than the other forces because it is spread out over additional dimensions.

Has anyone mentioned Loop Quantum Gravity theory yet?

Except, spacetime is at the very least 4-dimensional (I have glimpsed evidence of theorists attempting to model spacetime with multiple temporal dimensions). And all 4 of the observable dimensions are affected by gravity.

Note that a line segment can bend in one dimension, it will simply be perceived as a difference in length.

My Brain Hurts

Curvature of an n-dimensional medium can be described entirely in n dimensions: There is no need to invoke an n+1th dimension for it to “curve into”. And a 1-dimensional figure cannot be truly curved at all, with or without a second dimension for it to curve in.

I understand it enough to not see how it’s relevant to this discussion.

Same question to you I asked already: do you acknowledge that light and other electromagnetic radiation involves the movement of photons? And to repeat my previous question: what is the fundamental plenum made out of?

Yes.

Nobody knows, except that we can saw that whatever lies below the level of “stuff” isn’t “stuff”. Again, fundamentally we can’t see it, measure it, or directly manipulate it except via our normal macroscale universe.

Stranger

Q: Does gravity act instantaneously? Or at the speed of light? If the mass of a body decreases for some reason, do the effects on the surrounding space-time have a speed-of-light delay or are they immediate?

Gravity almost certainly acts at the speed of light. Or more accurately: light, gravity, and all massless particles travel at c.

However, direct measurements of the speed of gravity are essentially impossible. Indirect measurements have been made, but they have high error bars (+/- ~20%) and have been criticized for possibly not measuring what they say they measure. So the jury is out in that regard, though no one seriously believes that the value is actually different from c.

If you view Minkowski space as spacetime without gravitation then by re-writing the metric as η[sub]ab[/sub] + h[sub]ab[/sub] you are saying all the information about gravity is now contained in h[sub]ab[/sub]. You needn’t choose η[sub]ab[/sub] if you do not wish to, you may want to choose a de Sitter metric (positive cosmological constant) for example.

However there is a deep problem η[sub]ab[/sub] as highly questionable physical significance when the metric is decomposed this way. And if the background metric has dubious physicality then the field h[sub]ab[/sub] must have equally dubious physicality. That the decomposition of the metric isn’t fixed by the form of the background metric only underlines this.

For a simpleton like me, the problem with current models/understanding of how the universe fundamentally works is that the models are couched in mathematical equations.

The nature of math equations is to use assorted “units” and it is (in my simpleton world) the use of units that drives quantized models, where item X (a particle, say, is distinct from item Y (another particle). Compounding the drive to think of the world as being made up of particle/unit-based building blocks is that our everday world appears to have obviously discrete phenomena in which the players appear to be obviusly distinct from one another. A baseball–or photon–which changes its position relative to something else appears to be moving “through” whatever it is we call space.

If one considers math itself as a language, it is not hard to make a conclusion that mathematical equations may not be the route to the most beautiful understanding of how the universe actually works. It seems to me it is entirely possible that these equations–even when they are able to make remarkably accurate predictions about the world around us–are really just describing finer and finer behaviors–not smaller and smaller “particles.”

We think of a photon as a something moving through something else. We are aware that it’s not exactly a discrete “thing” because some aspects of what seems to happen don’t parallel discrete “things” (entanglement, for example). It is the language of math coupled with our observations in the macro world that constrains us to think of the photon as a discrete “thing” moving “through space.”

Even if math predicts correctly what will happen, and even if we get better at marrying quantum and GR math, we do not necessarily arrive at what is really happening.

Consider, for example, that “space” and “stuff” might be exactly the same thing. What we are and what we observe is not discrete things interacting; it’s behaviors of the same thing. A photon does not “move” through space; a photon is space behaving differently. Gravity is not some external “force” but is a perfectly smooth quality of whatever it is we want to call the one thing that makes up our universe.

I suppose an analogy might be that “space” (the one, perfectly smooth “thing,”) has a quality similar to density, and what we call particles (more precisely, perhaps, the observations that we quantize as particles) are denser space.

It may be that there is no such thing as finding the atom of which all things are made, and exist in space. It may be that the universe is smooth all the way down–so to speak–and that what we think of as finer and finer building blocks are really just finer and finer descriptions of behaviors.

If one discards both natural language and mathematical language as ways to describe what really is, then communicating anything does not become meaningful, so my musings here are not meant to be particularly worthwhile.

But deep inside this dullard’s fog is a gut feeling that we will eventually figure out that space and “particles” are the same thing…perhaps in the way we (well, Einstein et al) figured out that matter and energy are the same thing. The particle model will remain as a very useful way to package up observed behaviors, but we’ll stop thinking of particles as existing in space and shift to the notion that they are exactly the same thing, without any boundary at all, all the way down.

In such a construct it is not difficult to think of gravity as nothing more than thinner space…and dark energy as thicker space (?)…

Have you looked at the phenomena that lead to quantum theory? Einstein got his Nobel prize for working on the Photoelectric effect, which leads to a quantized view of light, even without math. Nothing to do with the drivers for quantized models you suggest, in fact the established truth was a continuous model.

Same goes for the discovery of atoms, which can be seen as a precursor to quantum theory. Before modern atomic theory there were no philosophically sound reason to pick any of the old atomic philosophies over continuous ones, and continuous was IIRC what won out.

Chief Pedant, could you define what you mean by “what’s really happening”, and why you think that math isn’t that?

And Dr. Strangelove, measurement of the speed of gravity isn’t actually that hard in principle. All you need to do is find something that emits both light and gravitational waves, detect both, and compare their timing. There are devices which have been designed which, if built, would do this within hours of being turned on. We’re lacking only the funding.

3-dimensional spacetime. It appears to me that the t parameter is an acknowledgement of the fact that everything is always in motion. We measure this in various ways and call the result time. It is inextricably bound-up with everything else but it is no more a dimension like length, width, depth than is my dog Ralph. I was referring to an additional spatial dimension.

And you got a reply that explained that you don’t need additional dimensions to warp an n-dimensional space.

I think what he may be saying, is that if an object were to move into a 4th spatial dimension, us 3-dimensional humans would perceive it warping in some otherwise impossible way (though all perceived properties could be explained using 4-dimensional geometry/math).

I think he didn’t grasp that the bending of space by gravity doesn’t require any extra dimensions. Possibly because that didn’t come through all that clearly in the replies. In fact the warping pretty much has to be of the dimensions in space-time for the effects they have.

If that’s the case, then so be it.

Back to analogy.

The outside of a circle is one-dimensional object. It continuously bends, but it’s not bending *in *anything. You can’t say that it’s bending around a two-dimensional circle. The outside can be treated mathematically as all there is, period.

The surface of a sphere is a continuously bending two-dimensional object. It doesn’t bend in a third-dimension, although it may look that way to us. Mathematically, the surface is all that is. It’s geometry is different from a flat two-dimensional surface; the internal angles of triangles vary and can add up to 270 degrees.

Three-dimensional space can be positively curved, negatively curved or flat. This is as mathematically intrinsic as the surface of a sphere. No fourth-dimension is needed for the curvature. Space is all there is. Time is a non-spatial dimension; we treat it as a fourth dimension because another measure is needed to fix a point in space-time but that’s a mathematical artifact. Lots of things physicists measure need more than three points but that doesn’t imply they are spatial dimensions.

Whether there is a fourth or higher dimensions is hotly debated now, but is irrelevant to the bending of space.

Yes and no. We realize that using “photons” as a model for how e/m works is often useful. As to whether there is actually a tangible thing that we could identify and say “here is a photon”, then no.

I never said anything about that. I simply said that your statement about why photons are able to act over distances was not correct. Have you ever actually studied electrodynamics?

Keep in mind that physics isn’t about telling us why things happen, only how they happen. The “why” is reserved for philosophy.

*Physicist: A body in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted on by an external force.

Non-physicist: Why?

Physicist: Hell if I know!*