Ohhhh, hijabs aren’t so bad. Pollution. That’s bad. Comes with the territory.
Idjits.
Of course not.
LC likes ribbing me, ever since my first encounter, puts my acerbic self in place.
Full speed ahead.
{{{Coll,}}} you’re such a sweetie, even if you say you’re a little acerbic. I’d like to hear about that encounter with L_C sometime. Hope you had a nice day, dear. I’m going to kick back with a good bottle of wine now. Take care, sweets.
OK, don’t believe it. I’m here to tell you it’s real. You don’t have to believe me, either. It still won’t change the fact that it’s happening. When I can’t get college aid becasue I’m WASP, yet a less-qualified (in measurable terms: scores, grades, relative family worth, etc.) person gets that very same aid because they’re not WASP, it’s discriminatory. Being one generation removed from poor-white trash (Dad, and his brothers, fought their way up, and did so fairly well), I get nothing that I didn’t pay for with sweat of my body or years off my life. I’ve got some education now, thanks to 15 years of military service, and some money for more, same reason. I paid for that with missing my family for years, missing weddings, births, holidays. I spent 9 Christmasses in a row on a floating chunk of steel. I went without sleep, I ruined my knees, lost half my hearing, and spent countless nights and weekends crammed into cramped miserable spaces, doing things that most people wouldn’t believe possible, to dangerous equipment. I’m proud I did it. I found a way out of my trap.
Why did I do this? Because I ran out of college money, and my father, still feeling his way towards financial capability, hadn’t any to give. I worked three jobs, slept less than 25 hours a week, and carried a full class load. It couldn’t, and didn’t, last. Meanwhile, I had to watch a bunch of lay-abouts whine about how abused they were, and how much they were owed by society. I’m not talking about those whom took the money quietly and did something positive with it, even though most of them were also less qualified than I, in raw terms. They, at least, had the grace not to rub my face in their fortunate disadvantagement. But, for every three graceful ones, I faced one whom didn’t hesitate to demand that I honour his ‘misfortune’.
I don’t blame them for my current condition. I got here by myself, and I’m in a pretty good place. I do blame a system that attempts to repair inequity with more inequity, and I really blame those who want to tell me that my struggle was the fault of my being an oppressor. Show me whom I’ve oppressed, and I’ll work tirelessly to right that wrong. Go ahead. Show me.
Yeah, I know that my little rant here isn’t directly about supporting WASP males, or males, or what ever, specifically, but I think it does touch on it.
Skarecrow, I think the term you’re looking for is ‘Andrist’ or ‘Andrism’.
Biggirl
Tell my dad about those advantages. He worked his way through CalTech. And yes, he was a lot tougher than I was when he was college aged. Being raised as white trash can do that to you.
Okay. Let me me get this clear. If one is a straight 25yr white male he should get whatever job he applys for never mind that fact he may not have the knowledge or wisdom to perform the task? That for some reason simply the fact of his state of existance obligates the world to hand him financial independence? 
Reminds me of my 25yr brother applying to med school and bitching to me (his older sister) about the women taking the available slots.:rolleyes: He made C’s in grade and middle school only began making “A’s” in the latter part of his high school years competing against people who made “A’s” thruout their school years. Who do you think deserves an opportunity to study medicine-- someone who excelled at coursework all their academic life or someone who straightened up and flew-a late-bloomer? Both have the merit and I would weight the latter more myself, howsomeever, the admitting boards look to talent for study first, thus the straight “A” student will get accepted before the “C->B-> A” student. He presumed that the women were getting in on their sex or race without knowing their academic merits. I admit I do not know it either I suspect that I am right.
If the individual does not have the talent or strength to perform the task that individual will fall flat on its face when it overreachs.
Quotas are another form of discrimnation. But if there is only one slot open and two people apply for it, 1 white & 1 black or other minority, and both have the approximately the same talent and knowledge base, who should be hired? The employer is damned one way or the other. But 40yrs ago the white guy got the job solely because he was who he was. Was that right?
I swear some people only scan posts and pick out half sentences to qoute.
Tranq-
Thank you for posting. You said things that I was trying to say much more articulate than I was managing to on my own, I thank you.
And I am glad that my post could bring two lovely people together, and thanks for the hug celeste.
What happened 40 years ago, or 50, or 60, isn’t the direct point here. The point here is that in an attempt to correct discrimination, society discriminated, unfairly, again. The standards as applied to me were far tougher than those applied to other demographics. Now, I suppose, If I were directly responsible for the previous discrimination, or even an enabler of that discrimination, then that’d be appropriate. Of course, I have had nothing to do with oppressing anyone (at 18, I’d have been hard pressed to oppress even my siblings: Way too many of them… ).
In the not-so hypothetical case of two equally quallified candidates for one position, well, I’ve been there, too. If I lose the coin-toss, then I lose the coin-toss. I’ve both won and lost. It was never fun, either way: Being ‘on the bubble’ is stressful, and losing sucks, but as long as I get a fair shake, I can live with it. I’ve also been on the other side of the hiring table, and it’s even less fun. Telling a list of candidates they lost, crushing their hopes, is one of the suckiest things I’ve ever had to do.
Skarecrow
It’s a tough world out there. The only positive thing I can say that I’ve recieved from being punished for crimes I did not commit, is that it gave me a little bit of insight to the world of the minorities. Even if you’re being ripped-off in the most egregious fashion, never forget that everything contains a lesson, if you can find it. Never stop learning.
Skarecrow said:
“And I am glad that my post could bring two lovely people together, and thanks for the hug celeste.”
You’re welcome, {{Skarecrow}}. I’ve got a cyberhug for you any time you need it. 
Tranquilis said:
Skarecrow
It’s a tough world out there. The only positive thing I can say that I’ve recieved from being punished for crimes I did not commit, is that it gave me a little bit of insight to the world of the minorities. Even if you’re being ripped-off in the most egregious fashion, never forget that everything contains a lesson, if you can find it. Never stop learning.
Well said, Tranquilis. You probably don’t want a cyberhug from me, but I’m going to give you one anyway. {{Tranquilis}}
If only we could spread more love in the world. [sigh]
[celestina sniffs, wipes her eyes with a dainty hanky, smiles happily, and exits stage left.]
I could have sworn Tottenham had a manager before I left for the weekend………
Meanwhile, back at the ranch:
celestina – I’m just teasing Coll a little. Kind of guy stuff with, in the context of this thread, a smidgeon of irony.
ruadh – are you back yet ?
Cos men are crap at breast feeding ? No ? okay…………
Anyway, how dare you actually go ahead and hijack your hijack (even if I did provoke you!). Could we save wage comparisons and gender roles for another day ?
I believe this was the starting point:
I guess we have a number of problems if we were to try and find an acceptable understanding of what is, or isn’t, happening in modern society. For example:
Perspective. Your view is based on what you see, mine on the probably unbalanced (when compared to the wider society) dynamics of inner and outer London. And although academic data is available, the picture it creates is complex, if not confused.
Sub-Groups: Across a range of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds, women either find it difficult to develop a career or simply don’t consider it as an option. For example, many Muslim and Hindi women born here do assimilate into the wider culture but many don’t despite attaining high academic qualifications. Also, a significant proportion of young inner city ‘working class’ women choose to become single mothers in their teens and before fully exploring academic possibilities. I don’t know which group or which ‘wider’ society you want to talk about
Career Choices: I also see a very noticeable distinction here. For example, ‘women’ dramatically out number ‘men’ in some professional fields and are themselves out numbered in others (women dominate here in most types of media especially magazine publishing, tv and radio, men: accountancy and business). Media is a highly influential business but it doesn’t naturally dovetail into a later career in politics or the Boardroom so while the women are there, often setting agendas, they aren’t as visible.
What I’m trying to say is that a numerical comparison of men vs. women is, IMHO, too naïve to be valid because a significant number of women can’t be considered as career orientated high achievers and, even when they can be, aren’t as often as are men in the right fields to be noticed.
Finally, what I’m going to say exposes me to accusations of being patronising but I’ve had so many similar conversations with my female contemporaries on this subject (as we’re now having) I have to say this.
Those bright, young, hungry-for-careers women who left law school with me shared exactly the views you are expounding – all of them. But (almost) all of them experienced the same ‘Road to Damascus’ conversion once they got home from the maternity ward: They looked into those big blue baby eyes and thought “Everything’s changed, my priorities lie here and that’s what I want”.
Theory is great but the reality of having 7lbs of helpless humanity retrieved from the back of your own net and then holding it in your arms does change the ‘goals’ of an awful lot of (still) feminist women. In their opinions.
I’m not claiming there is equality, here or in the US, but I do think the traditional ‘martyr’ position of women is too simplistic and, possibly, just a tad strained in a modern context.
Prepares to be assaulted by flying shoes, ashtrays, etc…………….
L_C, my computer’s crawling at the moment, and I haven’t got the time to look up the link, but I’d like to suggest you read the cover article in yesterday’s G2 section from the Guardian … I think it was called “Sexism in the City”.
I post as Exhibit A
Madonna’s new video.
Title, “What it’s like to be a girl.”
Video content, Madonna driving a Thunderbird running over poor white males. That is the whole damn video.
Imagine Kid rock or Eminem making a song called “What it’s like to be a man.” and the video consists of them jumping into a seventies sports car and running over young women. Would there be a public outcry? Hell fucking yes there would be. My guess on Madonna’s new Video? It will be called Genius, an ode to the empowerment of women. Bull shit. What ever happened to being a humanitarian?
Here’s the article ruadh mentioned:
Yikes.
Oh dear, how did that happen? Oh well, it works if you type it out by hand…
Thanks for the link, Fretful, It works fine if you c&p.
ruadh – I’m sure we’d probably agree on a whole range of things, including those you’re introducing – Lord knows City trading rooms are about as machismo as any place can get – but the original point I picked up on wasn’t:
-
The choices men and women may or may not have within their particular relationship after child birth
-
Prevailing attitudes in City dealing rooms
-
Sexual harassment in the workplace
It was this:
Originally posted by ruadh
So, exactly why do you think women are so seriously underrepresented at the higher levels of power (political and business)?
While it might be possible to develop a career from the trading rooms into politics or the boardroom, it isn’t a path of which I’m aware. Nor are those trading rooms, IMHO, indicative of the prevalent attitude in more sober professions.
Culture in the City (the financial district for those unaware) is unusual. Women sometimes don’t get employed despite their excellent qualifications (and the male gets the job) yet, at the same time, some do get employed notwithstanding their poor qualifications (because, as it’s colloquially known, of their F-Factor). Looks matter a lot to that City mentality.
So sure, all these topics are connected – we still live in a discriminating, sexist world – but I don’t believe it is helpful to simply imply (I assume that’s what you were implying) that the reason women don’t reach the higher levels of politics or business is because they are women. As I tried to outline in my preceding posts, IMHO there really is an awful lot more to this complex issue.
L_C, I’m not arguing that the issue isn’t complex, or that sexism is the entire reason women lag behind men. However, your posts on the subject have seemed to me to indicate that you place such an importance on the childbearing factor that you think there would be virtually no gender gap at all if women didn’t decide to have children. My points are simply that -
-
As the Guardian article demonstrates, there is, in at least some professions, still a degree of overt sexism which only the most blinkered would deny probably translates to a certain amount of outright discrimination; and
-
Even if you were correct, it would only demonstrate that modern society has not yet figured out how to accommodate career women who wish to have children in the way it has always accommodated career men.
So yes, I do think that to at least some extent “the reason women don’t reach the higher levels of politics or business is because they are women”. Saying that doesn’t mean I think gender bias is the entire problem. But the comment of Skarecrow’s to which I originally responded implied that it wasn’t a problem at all, and I’m still waiting for a plausible defence of that argument.