What is the Straight Dope on Raw Milk

Raw milk is more common in Europe, and there are a fair number of positive studies there looking at the effects of raw milk on asthma and other immunological problems.

https://www.jacionline.org/action/doSearch?text1=Raw+milk&field1=AllField

Cheese is where I usually hear the most griping about not being able to use raw milk. Some (not all) cheeses supposedly benefit a lot from using raw milk. The US will allow raw milk cheeses if they have been aged for 60 days (or more) in particular conditions but supposedly this ruins some cheeses like Brie and Camembert.

It’s kind of a crap shoot, if you’ve never tried it. Some people’s stomach juices get along just fine. But not a few, who’ve never been exposed, upon exposure get raging gastric issues. Vomiting and the shits for 12+ hrs is not unheard of.

I know this from bitter experience. I’ve got a pretty iron gut too. No qualms eating street food across SEAsia, India and South America. But two tablespoons, in a hot cup of tea and…BAM!

No thank you.

The problem with a lot of those “positive” studies is that they are not controlled (it would be difficult if not impossible to sanction a study that deliberately randomized one group of young children to receiving raw milk, with the health risk that entails). Another problem is separating out cofactors that might influence who develops asthma and respiratory infections, i.e. living on a farm where raw milk is more commonly consumed, but kids are also exposed to animals and may live in less “clean” environments. An additional study effect that’s encountered is self-reporting of children’s respiratory problems by parents and not confirmed by physicians.

The FDA lists numerous studies that counter beliefs about raw milk reducing allergies/asthma, supposedly building up the immune system or allegedly having superior nutritional qualities.

Speaking of comparative taste tests, here’s a blind test that backfired on raw milk advocates.

*the reporter in this story wrongly suggests there isn’t widespread agreement on the safety issue.

Right, but was that because it was not pasteurized, or because it was fresh? The proper test would need both milks to be of the same age.

Also, have you had non-homogenized milk that was pasteurized? I’ve not. Any milk that I’ve gotten at a store is both. I don’t really see non-homogenized milk anywhere.

I’m not saying you’re wrong that you could identify it. But, for a proper blind test, you have to isolate your variables. The only difference between the two must be that one was pasteurized and the other not.

And, supposedly, fast, high temperature pasteurization, as used in milk, does not appreciably affect flavor.

Keep in mind as well that a cow’s diet can vastly affect the flavor. If the fresh and local milk tastes better, it could be because of what the cows are eating an have nothing whatsoever to do with being unpasteurized.

There’s something else I’ve wondered about though. As we’ve all experienced, when milk spoils it goes really bad. It smells awful and tastes worse. But raw milk doesn’t do that, instead it sours. It gets tangy and is still useful for many things. I’ve used it for cooking steel-cut oats and the result was fabulous. So why is that?

Surely it can’t simply be that the pasteurized milk has the bacteria removed. Once I’ve opened a gallon of milk it’s exposed to all kinds of bacteria in the air. Is there something different about commercial milk that prevents it from souring? If I could magically teleport all the bacteria out of the raw milk, would it eventually spoil in the same horrid way?

FTR I haven’t drunk raw milk in years.

I have. I’ve bought it by mistake a couple of times. It’s a nuisance, and IMHO, doesn’t have any taste benefits.

I would suggest reading this article by an infectious disease doctor.

Money shot:

Blockquote
Warm liquid filled with protein, fat and sugars. A good growth media for a bacteria, if they can gain access to the milk. Impossible. Proponents of raw milk point to the clean cows and clean environments that produce raw milk, but you cannot deny both microbiology and gravity. The colons of cows are frequently colonized with the aforementioned potential pathogens and the udder sits below, waiting to be splashed with cow pie. MMMMmmmmmm. Milk and pie. Seriously. Would you lick any cow udder, no matter how clean?
/Blockquote

And:

“Milk is not, unless turned into Baskin Robbins Chocolate Chip ice cream, a miracle food…”

“Once upon a time milk was associated with 25% of infection outbreaks; in part due to pasteurization those rates fell to 1%. Thanks to the raw milk advocates, infections are looking up. The sad thing is parents will feed their children milk supplemented with cow poo. Adults have the right to be stupid; it is what makes America great. But it is a shame that children should suffer as a result of their parents goofy idée fixe.”

Well, sure, if I had some reason to. There’s nothing disgusting about a clean udder. I mean, I acknowledge the risks of raw milk, but “udders are gross, even when clean” isn’t one of them.

I read through those. And yes, in infants and kids who can not get breast milk, there can be some value.

However in one the main difference was with ultra-heat treated milk not Industrially processed pasteurized milk.

Also it was more the protections offered by farm life (which would entail drinking raw milk from their own cows, of course) , not necessarily raw milk from a store.
### Conclusions

In a large US farming population, early-life farm exposures, particularly maternal farming activities while pregnant, were strongly associated with reduced risk of atopy in adults. These results extend previous work done primarily on childhood outcomes and suggest that protective associations of early-life farming exposures on atopy endure across the life course.

And in one case, the writers concluded it was more likely homogenization not pasteurization.

van Neerven et al discuss the factors in raw cow’s milk that might contribute to protection against allergies. However, it is possible that it is not the presence of factors in raw milk, but rather the absence of a factor in processed milk—specifically homogenization—that is responsible for the “protection.”

But over and over the term 'farm milk" was used instead of 'raw milk".

Yes, they sell it in some grocery stores and most gourmet grocery stores. It comes in 1 qt glass bottles, usually, and is not cheap.

I see it in ordinary cardboard cartons. It’s shuffled in with the organic, grass fed, etc. milk brands. And it costs like those.

ETA

Or maybe ordinary plastic jugs. This is similar to what I’ve seen.

https://images.app.goo.gl/FCuNtgsczVS9w9kW8

Oh, Okay, sure, but locally it is from a gourmet dairy and sells in a glass bottle with a $2 or $1 deposit.

disclaimer: I didn’t read every post.

I milked my own goats for years, made cheese and yogurt etc. We usually drank it raw, but if a friend wanted a gallon, I pasteurized it before I gave it away, to be safer. Home pasteurization does not kill all the bacteria but it reduces the population substantially, which causes the milk to keep longer. Very clean raw milk, rushed to chilling, will last about a week in the fridge, home pasteurized twice that.

The taste of milk is not much affected by pasteurizing, I have found. What does affect it are:
what the cows or goats have been eating
the breed (some breeds have much higher butterfat milk than others, and it is the butterfat which makes milk taste rich and creamy).
how the milk is handled directly after milking (filtration, sanitation and immediate chilling are key)
and even individuals of the same breed give different-tasting milks.

Commercial milk is very highly processed. Comparing the the taste of the combined processed milk of several thousand near-clone Holstein cows fed a prepared fodder product versus one family Jersey cow grazing on a mixed grass and forbs meadow is like comparing a sun ripened garden tomato to industrial tomatoes ripened with ethylene gas until they are a pinkish gray.

The reason pasteurization was such a big health advance was not that raw milk consumed on the farm was dangerous – that was a practice thousands of years old. It was the advent of city milk – brought in on wagons from surrounding farms. Poor milk handling hygiene which would have been just fine with mere hours between milking and drinking was coupled with a much longer period before the milk was consumed, setting a party table for pathogens.

This is written by someone who has never milked a cow, possibly never even seen a cow be milked. Possibly has never seen a live cow. It’s without merit of any kind.

I’m sure the raw milk industry* would like consumers to believe that they’re getting milk from a single cow raised in a idyllic pasture with plenty of sunshine, love and unicorns.

The truth is that some of these raw milk dairies are big-time operations. For instance, one such place, Organic Pastures Dairy, sells to over 900 store locations around the U.S., and another, Raw Farms (both of these are California-based), sells to nearly 400 commercial outlets in CA and distributes Truly Raw Cheese to over 600 stores around the country. Size doesn’t necessarily make their milk and cheese less or more tasty or hazardous then the putative farm with one cow. With mass distribution however I’d think that one would also have to be concerned with safe transport, storage and retail handling practices.

And infectious diseases hardly existed thousands of years ago. :wink:

*there’s an industry group called the Raw Milk Institute that makes dubious claims about raw milk. Their website’s FAQ section has a statement saying that raw milk is highly unlikely to transmit Covid-19 (which I have no reason to doubt); however the very next FAQ answers claim that raw milk improves lung and immune function. That juxtaposition might well lead people to believe that raw milk protects against Covid-19 disease - something I have seen zero scientific evidence to support.
**one big-time raw milk dairy advertises that it treats sick cows with remedies like garlic and vodka, and essential oils. Antibiotics are mentioned, but pejoratively as something nasty dairies use. Oh, and this raw milk outfit uses “homeopathic blends” on its cows too.
Does all that ensure pathogens from a sick cow don’t enter the milk?

Never got to drink mink … you must have come from a very affluent farming community. :slightly_smiling_face:
But your point is sound.

Yes, milk from the cow at blood temperature with 5-6% butterfat, unpasteurised and non-homogenised will likely taste different to milk from a carton/bottle which has been blended between hundreds of dairy herds, standardised to 3.5% butterfat, pasteurised, homogenised and stored for several days at 4C.

But having got up in the early hours to hand milk the family house cow, I much preferred the product of my labours once refrigerated.

Is there a significant difference of risk from drinking raw milk or eating raw oysters? a medium rare hamburger? sushi? a Caesar Salad made with raw egg? or any other menu item that gets the asterisk “consuming raw or under cooked food may cause…”

I never had raw milk, but if some people like it, shouldn’t it be up to them, like oysters. (i think oysters are disgusting).

Um… yes and no.

If you are consuming raw milk drawn from a healthy cow under clean conditions a very short time after it is produced it’s not an extraordinary risk. But look at the caveats - the factors are healthy cow - and remember the cow could be a carrier for something that doesn’t make the cow sick but might make you sick - clean dairy, proper handling, proper storage, and length of time outside of cow. If a cow isn’t carrying a pathogen it can’t give you an illness. But cows are animals and don’t understand the concept of toilet paper, so their udders need to be properly cleaned before milking and all equipment (down to your own hands if you’re doing it the old fashioned way) must be scrupulously clean. The milk must be handled in a hygienic fashion after it’s out of the cow. If you’re not using it immediately it needs to be properly stored. Raw milk is going to go bad quicker than pasteurized milk - consume it minutes after milking the bacteria will be a low levels and (probably) won’t be a problem. Wait a day or two and that might become an issue.

This is why some places were raw milk is legal restrict it to small scale operations where you have to purchase the milk on the farm it is produced and said places are inspected more frequently than typical dairies. It’s easier to watch smaller numbers of animals, purchasing it on the farm means less time and transport in which things can go wrong, and more frequent inspections we hope means less risk of sick cows or bad practices in handling milk.

That said, you do raise a point about risky foods. However, all of those foods have ways to reduce risk.

Raw oysters - government entities do test waters and oyster beds for pathogens. It’s not an exact thing, but if such testing turns up a problem then those areas are shut down for production which helps reduce the number of problem oysters in the human food chain. The old tradition of “don’t eat oysters during months without an R in them” means avoiding oysters during the summer, when water is warmer and more likely to be contaminated with bacteria that cause illness (not 100% risk reduction - something like 40% of cases occur during the winter). You can find out where your oysters come from and avoid those from warmer areas. You can limit your consumption of raw oysters to smaller numbers instead of consuming your bodyweight in oysters, which will limit your exposure but still won’t guarantee complete safety.

Medium rare burgers (or rare/raw ground beef Part of the problem is that commercial ground beef is produced somewhat by running 50,000 cows through a single funnel. One bad cow can contaminate a LOT of burgers (which is how we get massive recalls). Some butchers/processors will run small batches of beef through a grinder and sanitize between them, which will reduce risk. You can also grind your own meat at home, so you get a slab of beef from just one cow and grind it yourself in a situation where you can thoroughly clean/sanitize everything, which will reduce your risk (but not to zero). You can try to source from healthy cows. Proper slaughter and handling techniques also come into play. If you carefully source your beef you intend to eat raw or at least less than well done and handle it properly from source to table you do reduce your risk. However, commercially made, formed, and packaged beef patties that are intended to be cooked are NOT handled quite so carefully and should not be eaten less than well done IMHO. If you want rare burgers I’d suggest buying a quality cut of beef and grinding it yourself.

Sushi - by which I assume you mean sashimi, the raw fish bits in sushi. Again, there are risk reduction techniques. Traditionally the fish is sliced thinly so if any parasites or signs of illness are apparent that bit can be discarded, which is better than nothing, but that only finds the visible parasites, not microscopic eggs or bacteria. In the US in all but a few locations regulations require that fish intended for sushi be frozen at specified temperatures for a specified length of time to kill parasites. Some purists wail about this “destroying” the flavor and texture but I’m guessing the average consumer doesn’t have that refined a palette. If you’ve eaten sushi in the US your fish was frozen before you ate it. This is why there are fewer instances of illness from sushi in the US than in Japan, where freezing is not required. Again, handling from source to table is an important factor here.

Raw egg - first, start with a healthy chicken. In Europe they vaccinate their chickens against salmonella, the US does not. This is but one reason that Americans refrigerate their eggs and most of Europe does not. Start with a flock of chickens that don’t have salmonella or other pathogens. Raise your own chickens and you have control over that and consuming raw eggs from such chickens will be a lot less risky than the cheap ones at the local supermarket. These days, a lot of restaurants and other food producers that make products with “raw” eggs use pasteurized eggs - just like milk, heat treated to kill bacteria but still liquid and not in that sense cooked. The same debate about what this does to flavor that you see with pasteurized vs. raw milk applies.

Yes, up to a point.

The problem is informed consent. Do people have all the information they need to asses the risks vs. the reward? Can they get unbiased information? Do they know where this food comes from? How it has been handled? How healthy are you? Because the risks go up for people who are pregnant, have diabetes, impaired immune systems, and so forth.

I do eat sushi. I don’t eat just any fish raw, though. And I’m very happy with my sushi sashimi having been frozen at some point before it reaches me because I don’t want parasites. I thoroughly enjoy it, and if I’m missing some nuance by doing it that way well, it’s a risk vs. benefit thing for me. You do you. If you want to stick to vegetarian maki when we go to a sushi bar that’s fine with me.

Back to raw milk - I do think this can be done with some reasonable safety, although that doesn’t always happen. I do NOT think it can be done on a mass scale or cheaply. Pasteurization makes large quantities of inexpensive dairy available to the masses and that is a good thing. Safe raw milk is going to cost more, and will always carry a bit more risk than pasteurized. If you want raw milk, fine, but be smart about it. Know the sources, know how it’s handled, and don’t listen to the woo about how it’s the cure for all that ails you.