What is the Straight Dope on Raw Milk

The fact that milk can make you ill has long been recognized. Historically, cultures that milked cows (and to a lesser extent goats and sheep) had practices involved in keeping dairy areas clean to the best of their capabilities. People who have milked animals have always striven to keep the milk as clean and healthy as possible. Doing so of course reduces risk.

This was also seen with cheese making, where sloppy sanitation can cause some really undesirable results. People didn’t know why everything had to be kept so clean, but they were aware of what happened when the cleaning wasn’t done.

Back in the days when dairy herds were smaller the risks were also different. Isolated cows or small groups are much less likely to have “crowd disease” that could be passed on to humans.

In the late 19th Century milk did become a public health risk. Prior to the Industrial Age milk in cities was largely supplied by cows that lived in the city (which had problems, yes, but nothing is perfect). People in cities that desired milk could pick it up directly from the dairy less than half a day out of the cow. This reduced travel time decreased the risks of raw milk by reducing the length of time that bacteria had to replicate. The purchaser could also get a look at how clean the dairy was and get a rough idea of the health of the cow(s). This method still happens in some places, like India. With industrialization there were fewer cows in cities in Europe and milk traveled further distances, which meant longer time between cow and consumer, which meant more bacteria.

If raw milk rarely transmits disease in practice it’s because thousands of years of cultural awareness of the need for cleanliness, and later on germ theory, immunization, and so forth, reduces the risk of raw milk. It is very clear that vigilance is needed, and rules, and inspections to protect the milk supply and prevent illness. Yay, these things usually work.

One reason diseases can pass between bovines and humans more readily than between camels and humans is the longer association between bovines and humans have given pathogens more time to adapt to the companions (humans) of their main host (bovines). That said, it’s not impossible for disease to move between camels and humans, and MERS is a corona virus that can do so. I think we all know at this point that corona viruses are something that can be a problem.

Anything that reduces disease in milk and dairy (of any sort or origin) does have the benefit of reducing disease in both animals and humans, which is a worthy goal.

My very first case as an intern was an elderly gent who got Listeria meningitis, presumably from raw milk or cheese he consumed from a local provider of it. He nearly died. I watched the disease run its course from the presentation in the ER (high fever to 106, delirium, rigid neck) thru his ICU stay (cooling blankets, intubation, pressors, the works) and his eventual discharge to a rehab facility 6 weeks later. We were all amazed that he lived. He was even fairly with it mentally after all that.

I’ve avoided raw milk since then (1983) but have weakened and tried some raw milk cheese here and there. Some things are worth a little risk, others are not.

The good part was that his immune system got a real boost, right?

The Yorkshire vet, Herriott, mentioned in one of his books that tuberculosis was endemic in dairy cows in the 30s, and that their milk in turn infected humans. He was convinced that the advent of TB vaccines and antibiotics for the cattle, plus pasteurisation of the milk, saved human lives.

James Alfred “Alf” Wight (AKA James Herriot) set his books in an earlier time than the real events that inspired them happened, so perhaps his observations on the subject are suspect.

On the other hand, we he was a real practicing veterinarian so I imagine he was somewhat careful in his thoughts on such things.

This. Absolutely this. Raw milk direct from the farm - good. Raw milk mass-produced and sold in the store - why bother?

I also noticed in your descriptions of safely consuming other raw things, a connecting thread was “freshness”. The sooner you can consume something, the less time there is for nastiness to occur. You want to eat a cannibal sandwich (raw ground beef, onions, worcestershire sauce)? find a good cut of beef and grind it yourself. You want sushimi? Don’t get it from a grocery store or (worse yet) a gas station - get it made fresh.

Herriot/Wight entered into practice at the time when medicine - for animals as well as humans - was entering into the antibiotic era, which was enormously game-changing. Reading his books I was reminded of my father, a pharmacist, who also started working on the cusp of that innovation.

I don’t think those of us growing up after that time really comprehend what a game-changer antibiotics were.

I do know my dad, while having a grasp of the evils and exploitation possible with Big Pharma, and also having a grasp of the dangers of over-use, was an enthusiast for industrial pharmaceuticals. He had seen what life was like without them. Known potency, known dosages, no contaminants, effective against so many things that used to kill people…

Perhaps he was biased because when he was in high school in the early 1940’s and his appendix ruptured, given him a thumping case of peritonitis that no one expected him to survive because no one survived an infection like that back then, his life was saved by a new and experimental drug no one had ever heard of called “penicillin”.

Dad might have also been biased for another reason - growing up his family ran a funeral home. The local TB sanitarium was a frequent stop for the pick-up crew, which he spent some time on because, well, family business. Dad carted quite a few people dead of TB to the funeral home, he saw up close the damage that disease did. (Dad never came down with TB, but when testing for it was required they couldn’t use the skin-test on him as his exposure had given him plenty of antibodies so they always had to use a different test)

Dad was always kind of horrified by the notion of people drinking raw milk. It was along the lines of “we did all that work to make milk truly safe and then people have to go be idiots about this?”. City people like my parents were thrilled to have pasteurization, they just didn’t have access to just-minutes-out-of-the-cow milk and they knew people who had been made seriously ill by bad/contaminated milk.

Anyhow - you need a healthy cow to get healthy milk. Advancing veterinary science has made things safer for both the cows and the humans.

As an aside - there are milk banks for human milk for infants. There are human women who’s milk is unsafe for one reason or another, so such a milk bank would be the only way for their infants to get human breast milk. Donating women and their milk must undergo testing, particularly since the most likely recipients are babies that often already have health problems. Historical accounts also speak of how in the past the health, diet, and hygiene of wet nurses were of major concern when selecting a wet nurse. These are not new concerns and not limited to any particular species of mammal.

Yes. Although there are preservation techniques, like freezing, that can keep perishable foods safe. Either halt the biological activity of germs (freezing) or don’t give them time to replicate (freshness), either way makes for safer food.

The good part was that the attending didn’t think he had meningitis and I did, and he challenged my Dx as I was a callow 1st day intern. He didn’t think the LP was indicated. I did it anyway and the CSF was ugleeee! I was a residency superstar as a result. That stardom lasted about 3 days and seldom recurred over the ensuing 3 years of training.

I usually go to a teaching hospital, and typically, I am examined first by a medical student and/or intern, and then by a staff physician. Although this takes a lot longer than just seeing a staff physician, I feel like I am not only helping create the next generation of doctors, I also get the benefit of two sets of eyes, one of which isn’t yet bored with ordinary patients like me.

Thanks with putting up with all of that. I always tried to let the patients know I appreciated their patience with us.

I had a fertility workup when my wife was having fertility issues. A medical student, intern, visiting fellow, and doctor took turns doing different exams and procedures, including a prostate check.

One interesting thing they did was to “size” my testes, feeling each testicle with one hand while fondling a string of wooden balls with the other until they found the matching wooden ball, which was marked with its size.

While they were doing this I pointed out that I wasn’t catholic, which got puzzled stares. “Oh, you guys aren’t saying the rosary?” got a chuckle.

And if you’re extra lucky, two rectal exams.

Particularly annoying when your complaint is of an earache.

Oh, I can top that. I let a medical student try to place my IUD. He failed, and the staff physician had to do it. That’s a HELL of a lot more painful than a rectal exam, and at least as … socially awkward.

(I honestly don’t get the complaints about rectal exams. They are nothing compared to the pap smear. Yeah, a little uncomfortable as the doctor feels up the ovaries from the inside. Are prostates all THAT much more awful to have handled than ovaries?)

I must be an insensitive clod - I’ve never found pap smears or palpating the ovaries to be horrible. Not fun, not something I’d do for giggles, but not nearly as bad as what some people apparently experience. I don’t know if I’ve just had good folks doing them or what.

I think some men might have issues with rectal exams as they perceive as somehow “gay” or that they might themselves be suspected of being gay if they don’t protest. Poor snowflakes.

(Most men in my life don’t like them but don’t seem to freak out over them, either)

I don’t find them horrible, either. Just a bit unpleasant. I did once say “ouch” when the nurse practitioner poked a little hard at my cervix, and had her lecture me on how I don’t have any nerves there and couldn’t possibly feel pain. But that’s about as bad as it’s gotten.

Oh, I’m sure it’s the comparison to anal sex. I’ve had my prostate examined, and it’s not horrible. Let’s face it - men getting prostate exams are older, growing up in a time when being gay was something to be ashamed about, so comparing the exam to gay sex was a big joke. Cis white males, this is as close as most of us are going to come to “rape”, so we think it’s OK to joke about it.

Unusual thread drift: Raw Milk to Rectal Exams. It is what I love about SDMB. But still . . .

Does drinking raw milk improve the results of a rectal exam?

:slight_smile:

It’s your fault you know, going on about that patient you had as a new intern and sending us sliding down a slippery medical slope.

Good job!