The Taliban and related Islamic radicalist groups are seen by the west as uniquely evil and oppressive, and their actions over time have done noting to dispel that perception. In our view they are the “bad guys”, and we are “good guys”.
What are we missing in this sort of cartoon snapshot of the enemy? What should we understand about the situation that we are not currently understanding if we are ever to stop being in conflict?
It is just going to have to be a battle to the death?
shrug Some of the anti-American sentiment in the Muslim world is our chickens coming home to roost; for decades we propped up any friendly government, no matter how unpleasant it was to its own citizens.
Some of it is just douchebags being douchebags, and having a greater opportunity for douchebaggery because of the sentiment stirred up by our own malfeasance.
Some of it is based on lies and misperceptions (like the view of our role in Israel).
I don’t think the Taliban has any desire to attack the West. They just want to rule their little corner of the world. That they were harboring al Qaeda was a stupid mistake on their part, and we should have been able to find a way of dealing with one without having to poke our stick into the hornet nest of the other.
Al Qaeda has it out for the west, and although I don’t think we “deserve” to be hit by terror attacks, we are propping up some pretty oppressive regimes. We shouldn’t be surprised when the people being oppressed see us as part of the problem, especially when we’re the big guy on the block and naturally generate a certain amount of envy and resentment.
Now, the promise of the Arab Spring is a movement, completely apart from the Islamists, rising up against those oppressive regimes. It’s one thing when we stay out of the melee in places like Syria, where we have little to no influence, but when we completely ignore what is going on in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain… well, we look no better than the oppressors themselves. That leaves exactly the kind of opening that AQ is looking for.
You left out Anti-US propaganda, spread by local corrupt governments, to distract their populations from corruption & poverty.
nm
Infidel!
Crusader!
Supporter of the Zionist Entity!
I think you’ve answered your own question right there - we don’t know very much about those we call our enemy.
It’s what we do. Part of why we had such a bad experience in Vietnam is because we made no effort to understand the culture. Same mistake to some extent with Iraq. I find this worrisome.
Doesn’t Playtex make that?
The Infidel-Crusader-Supporter of the Zionist Foundation Garmet™?
Islam and christianity have different ideals. Muslims have respect for groups like the Taliban because they are at least trying to be religious. The difference can be seen if you group together some things that would normally be considered behaviours associated with a religious group or person in christianity and islam.
In christianity, a religious person might show such aspects as:
piousness
quiet contemplation
acceptance/forgiveness of others
pehaps even a monk-like separation from society
In islam, a person may be considered religious if they show such aspects as:
adherence to the laws - the stricter the adherence the better
dressing the right way
talking about those laws a lot in general conversation
trying to make society more in tune with those laws
You can add your own things to that list but you see my point - what is considered religious behaviour in one is not necessarily seen as religious behaviour in the other. So whereas, people in the west may see the taliban as harsh, oppressive, cruel and discriminatory to women, people in the muslim world see them as religious.
They may see them as overly religious but religious nonetheless and religious = good. So when America bombs the taliban they see it as America bombing a religious group. Kind of like bombing a group of Franciscans or something.
There is therefore a fundamental disconnect. Muslims don’t see them as evil, just devout. Devout is good. Christians don’t see Franciscans as evil, just devout. Devout is good.
(ps I just picked Franciscans at random as an example of a religious group within the larger group of christians - not for any specific reason)
Al-Qaeda is at least as political as it is religious, if not more so. Check out bin Laden’s “Open Letter to America”, sent shortly after 9/11; bin Laden claims a desire to oppose the percieved* oppression of Muslims in Palestine, Somalia, Chechnya (here he lumps Russia in with the rest of the West), Kashmir, and Lebanon. He also objects to a perceived economic oppression and blames the West for impoverishing the Muslim world and taking oil and minerals at unfair prices. Bin Laden particularly seeks to overthrow governments of Muslim countries who he views as too pro-Western. He then reasons that Americans pay taxes and vote, so they’re all legitimate military targets, because people who votes and pay taxes are implicitly support the oppression of Muslims. He also objects to pollution, free love, mistreatment of prisoners in Guantanamo, and support of corrupt leaders in Muslim countries**.There’s a religious element here (he stringently objects to the fact that Clinton got a blowjob from someone who wasn’t Hillary) and he’d like it if we submitted to Islam, imposed Sharia law, and quit supporting Israel (though this is mostly predicated on Israel’s occupation of Jerusalem, not a blind hatred of Jews). However, there’s a hell of a lot more going on here than an overfocus on violent passages in the Qu’ran.
Full text of the letter here.
*I have no desire to debate the actuality of these perceptions. He perceives them, which is my point.
**OK, I’ll debate this one if necessary. America totally supports corrupt Muslim leaders.
One thing to start with: It’s all about pride. (Not poverty.)
Don’t see what we can do about that, though.
That was supposed to be included in “douchebags being douchebags”.
The biggest misconception is that many Muslims see this as justifiable self-defense. Their point of view is that for the last five hundred years or so, Muslims have been content to stay out of Western lands. It’s been Westerners who have been invading Muslim lands.
The hypocrisy of decrying the smell emanating from someone else’s house while continuing to pack dung into ours.
I think one item that is missing was reported by the jester in chief, John Stewart.
In his May 2nd show dealing with the killing of Bin Laden he mentioned that Osama had been the “face” of all Muslims seen by many Americans.
With his death, that was approved by a good number of Muslims because of Osama was the focus, now the “face” are the young people of the middle east revolting against oppressive governments.
While it is true that radicalism is still a problem, I think many are ignoring that there are changes happening that made the radicals, so far, virtually irrelevant in the latest unrest. IMHO that irrelevancy needs to be encouraged but I do wonder if continuing to use the “remedies” that we are currently using in the Middle east will continue to be as useful as many think they are.
This is so at odds with my experience, I gotta say something. In my experience a Muslim person is considered to be religious if they:
Sorry, let me list what I’ve got:
Are generally sober, and don’t indulge in excessive behavior, especially addictive things
Are devoted to their family, and spend as much time as possible with the family
Treat guests, even complete strangers, with honor. This includes being respectful to strangers on the street, not harassing women, not yelling at bad drivers, etc.
Give, and give well, from the heart and without making it public, to the poor
Keep a humble, modest, dignified demeanor, including in dress but also in attitude
Live seamlessly and with appreciation for the daily and seasonal rhythms of the religion
Hmm, my list was supposed to be things that are over and above the things that every muslim does ie things that make them seem religious even to other muslims so this one:
generally applies to all muslims not just particularly religious ones (not drinking)
Likewise this one:
if you mean praying and ramadan. Not all muslims pray five times daily but enough of them do not to make it seem overly religious to them if one does
The others I’ll give you although this one:
if the charity is done secretly then it can’t be something that makes them seem religious because no one knows they do it
Also note I was thinking of the more religious societies like the taliban, Iran, Saudi Arabia to compare what they think of as religious to what the west thinks of as religious. That’s why I included “trying to make society more in tune with religious laws” eg by having religious police etc going round as enforcers
Clearly, as they don’t seem to have any qualms about killing fellow muslims to make a point to a government that wasn’t even complicit in the raid.
Pakistan: Blasts kill 80 to avenge bin Laden death
Qualifier: the article calls the group taking responsibility both al-Qaida-linked militants and Pakistani Taliban at different points in the article. I do not know enough to know which or if both descriptions are accurate.
I’m sure that’s true for some Muslim societies, but not for all. My version is based on West Africa. I’m sure it’s different in Bangladesh or Malaysia.